Talk:János Bolyai

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I added "citation needed" to the sentence claiming Bolyai to have spoken several foreign languages, and removed the claim of Chinese and Tibetan. Having read some of his biographies, I am almost certain that this claim is not true. Besides his native Hungarian he certainly spoke Latin, German, he most likely spoke Romanian, and probably he could read articles in French and perhaps in English. I remember reading that he was interesting in learning languages and expressed interest to learn Chinese. Is there any evidence that he progressed on this project? Remember that back then, learning material would have been quite difficult to find (he struggled for a decade to find an article of Gauss, for example.) I think the reference to Tibetan might be from a confusion with a figure from a similar time and place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndor_K%C5%91r%C3%B6si_Csoma

Place of birth, death[edit]

According to the Encyclopædia Britannica article on János Bolyai and his biography at the Teleki-Bolyai Library website he was born in Kolozsvár, Hungary and died in Marosvásárhely, Hungary. I´d suggest we use these historically accurate names in the article, as both towns are located in Transylvania, which — during Boyai´s lifetime, between 1802 and 1860 — was part of the Kingdom of Hungary. Kolozsvár and Marosvásárhely are the historical Hungarian names of present-day Cluj-Napoca and Târgu Mureş, respectively. — Tombartal (talk) 17:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Check a history book, Transylvania was not a part of the Kingdom of Hungary in that times (Iaaasi (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
The Encyclopædia Britannica must be wrong then. :-) — Tombartal (talk) 18:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems so (Iaaasi (talk) 18:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
As it is apparent from the article´s revision history, there have been numerous edits to and fro in this matter. My opinion is — by extension, based on the consensus regarding Gdańsk/Danzig, Istanbul/Constantinople and others (plus naming conventions) — that the use of Hungarian names is indeed appropriate in this historical context. I suggest editors with expertise in history and geography also share their views. Thanks. — Tombartal (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Grand Principality of Transylvania was a province of the Austrian Empire in that period and the official language was German. So we must the German names (Iaaasi (talk) 20:26, 22 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
I guess you are referring to Joseph II who in 1784 decreed that the official language in the Monarchy was to be German — a rather controversial move in a multi-language and multi-ethnic empire (see Eastern Europe: an introduction to the people, lands, and culture, P. 350, ISBN 1576078000, or Nationalism and the state, P. 125, ISBN 0719038006). Is is also noteworthy that a few days before his death in 1790 he revoked all his decrees except the Edict of Tolerance, thus allowing his successor, Leopold II to restore Latin as a de jure official language (see A history of the Habsburg Empire, 1526-1918, P. 288, ISBN 0520042069). However, attempts were made later to stop the use of Latin in official correspondence. Of course, German remained a common language in the administration and higher education, and a symbol of the empire, but the languages traditionally used in a province, ie. Landessprachen or landesübliche Sprachen were permitted to be used, in the publication of laws and decrees for example (Diglossia and power: language policies and practice in the 19th century, P. 139-140, ISBN 3110176548). — Tombartal (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also think that the Hungarian name of Bolyai's birth town, Kolozsvár, is the appropriate one, since, for example, (1) every relevant source uses that name (see below), (2) the majority population of the town were Hungarian in that time and, moreover, Bolyai himself was Hungarian. The same is true for Bolyai's place of death, Marosvásárhely. Therefore, until a consensus is reached in favor of another naming convention, these names should be used. ~ Koertefa 3:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

External sources[edit]

A list of English language, independent sources using Hungarian, German or Romanian geographic names, to substantiate the points made above. — Tombartal (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your sources provide strange information. It is well known that Cluj/Klausenburg/Kolozsvár was not a part of Hungary before 1867. According to WP:PLACE: "For example, the city now called Gdańsk is referred to as Danzig in historical contexts to which that name is more suited (e.g. when it was part of Germany or a Free City).". During Bolyai's life Transylvania was a province of the Austrian Empire. A similar example is the article about Avram Iancu, a contemporary of Bolyai, where the German name Ober-Wider is used (Iaaasi (talk) 06:34, 24 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]
I moved your comment up to separate the conversation from the list of sources and removed the bold formatting, I hope you don´t mind. Also, I commented on your point regarding the official language issue above. — Tombartal (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Kolozsvár"[edit]

Sources using the Hungarian variant principally or exclusively:

"Klausenburg"[edit]

Sources using the German variant principally or exclusively:

  • Please expand this list
"Cluj"[edit]

Sources using the Romanian variant principally or exclusively:

  • Please expand this list

Result[edit]

In the last three months, including a period of RFC, no sources have been presented to back up the priority of the German names; in the meantime however, Koertefa chose the "Kolozsvár (Klausenburg), now Cluj-Napoca" version. I agree and support this solution as it addresses the possible sensitivity of German-speaking readers. — Tombartal (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Information on Hungarian names of places in modern Romania[edit]

Recently, some Hungarian names of modern Romanian places were removed, stating that "(..)" indicates "present-time" and now these places are not part of Hungary. In my opinion, giving alternative names of places in brackets is a normal tradition and, for example, providing information on the Hungarian name of a city in modern Romania (in brackets, as an alternative) does not indicate that it is in Hungary. In many articles in Wikipedia, for example,[1] [2], alternative names in languages of minorities are given in brackets (e.g., Welsh alternatives of English place names and Basque alternatives of Spanish place names, etc.). Naturally, I respect modern Romania, therefore, when we speak about contemporary Romania, the place names should be given in Romanian first and, e.g., the alternatives should be given in brackets. But it is absolutely acceptable, and in line with the traditions of Wikipedia, to provide alternatives place names, as well, especially since this article is about a Hungarian person and there are still many Hungarians in Romania. -- Koertefa (talk) 05:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a problem if you put Hungarian name too that this place isn`t in Romania anymore. Hungarian culture in Romania is important and there are even laws that protects it, but when talking about "present-time" example I believe there is a wiki rule about all this (official names and "present-time" example) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PLACE#Use_modern_names. Inserting Hungarian names (in this case) would imply that Hungarian is one of the official languages in Romania and per other examples this is really inappropriate. Again information you are talking about(alternative names) can be easily found in the lead of that respective place/article, and in places where Hungarian minority represents more than 20% even in the infoboxes. What you are doing here is incorrect because it is not talking about a historical period when the Hungarian lanugage was official. 1)The Babeş-Bolyai University in Cluj-Napoca, that was established in 1959 -1959 Cluj-Napoca was not a part of Hungary. 2)In the Other work section is talking about present time. Your examples are not appropriate because in all those places that particular language is official (Welsh, Basque and others.. ).Adrian (talk) 05:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The minority languages in my examples are not official languages. The official language of UK is English and the official language of Spain is Spanish. These are only recognized regional languages and, as I know, Hungarian is also a recognized language in some regions of Romania, where there are significant Hungarian populations (cf. European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages). As my examples also demonstrate, the (.) does not indicate associations with a country, e.g., there is no country of Welsh people. Moreover, in the article about South Tyrol, the German names are given first (and not in brackets), even though the official language of Italy is Italian and even the majority population of South Tyrol speak Italian. Therefore, if we give alternative names of places in brackets, (1) it does not indicate that it is an official language of the whole country and (2) it does not indicate that they currently belong to the country associated with the language of the texts in brackets. Koertefa (talk) 03:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Famous quote needs citation[edit]

There seem to be many translations of the famous quote in the aticle we use 

"For God's sake, I beseech you, give it up. Fear it no less than sensual passions because it too may take all your time and deprive you of your health, peace of mind and happiness in life".

I amnot sure if this is the best translation of the what really was written therefore added an [citation needed] tag (although i think you can find this translation as well)

Not so long ago i made a question about this on stackexchange see https://hsm.stackexchange.com/q/6400/557 WillemienH (talk) 14:45, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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