Talk:Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts

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Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

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Requested move 14 September 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 18:31, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Change of name of company and merger of 'Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts' and 'Italia Conti Arts Centre' to 'Italia Conti'.

'Italia Conti' was previously associated with the person Italia Emily Stella Conti. This page has already been renamed/moved to 'Italia Emily Stella Conti' which should free up 'Italia Conti' title to be used for the school. ItaliaConti (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - 1) You need to declare your conflict of interest, and 2) the move and speedy deletion of the article about the actress appears to me to be an attempt to pre-empt this discussion, and 3) we need reliable sourcing of the name the entity is known by. DuncanHill (talk) 18:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also Oppose. It's not clear to me why Italia Conti should be renamed, per WP:COMMONNAME? There might be a case for Italia Conti (educational establishment). Tacyarg (talk) 19:32, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added move of associated article on the person, which by DuncanHill (talk) had reverted. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 20:17, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Absolutely fine as it is. Common names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 13 October 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– I am the great niece of Italia Emily Stella Conti. As an actress she went by her full name and lent simply her name and surname to the school she started - this eventually became Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts, and a number of other Italia Conti companies were also formed. Whilst the school eventually changed ownership (and has been inherited by a different family) over the years, I have been notified by the current board that it has merged multiple companies together and changed its trading name to Italia Conti. It would be appropriate that the actress Italia Conti be known by her full actress name Italia Emily Stella Conti, as she would have wanted. It would be more factually correct and in the public interest for Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts to be retitled to its trading name Italia Conti - this is how it has informally been known since 1911, and has now been formalised. EveShew (talk) 12:48, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (as in discussion a month ago). I can't see any reason for doing this. Do you have evidence that the person Italia Conti went by the name Italia Emily Stella Conti? I have just put the phrase into the British Newspaper Archive. There are three results for Italia Emily Stella Conti: two are from 1932 and are from the formal application for the licence for the school, where I can see that one might use one's full name. The other is from 2007, an article to do with the school. There are 1698 results for "Miss Italia Conti", so on the face of it I don't see evidence that the actor used the full version of her name. Please also see WP:COMMONNAME: calling the article about the person Italia Conti meets the criteria of Recognizability, Naturalness, Concision and Consistency. The school's case may be based on Precision, I guess, but it seems unlikely that there would be problems distinguishing between a person and an organisation in this case. Italia Conti (actor) and Italia Conti (educational establishment) might be possible I suppose - I don't think it is technically a school. But on balance I don't see a need for this change. Tacyarg (talk) 13:19, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Italia Emily Stella Conti reported in the newspaper is referring to her as the actress, when she was a tutor at her own school she went by Miss Italia Conti - both of which are accurate. However you can take the case of Lady Gaga as an example of the precedent set for using a person's stage/professional name as the title of the article: " Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta known professionally as Lady Gaga" (Lady Gaga - Wikipedia, 2022). Having a media source represents this as accurate. A search across the web will almost always return the result as Italia Emily Stella Conti when referring to the actress, including IMDB. Wiki is the only one that gives information on my great aunt but not using her stage name, something she valued.
With regards to Italia Conti (the school). It is no longer Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts, and therefore this title is wrong. Your point about it changing on the basis of precision is correct. If McDonalds changed its name to McDon I presume for accuracy Wikipedia would represent the new name and simply list the old or 'previous names' as appropriate in the article. Technically, if this is an issue about historical names, the school was originally registered as The Italia Conti Stage School before it was the Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts, and has since changed name again why should the article not reflect this change. The company sites itself on their website as Italia Conti EveShew (talk) 13:55, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense to me. I train there at the moment and know it as Italia Conti for the place and Italia Emily Stella Conti as the lady who started it. @Tacyarg your opposition could make it confusing for people. Mobana4953 (talk) 14:19, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a comment that the school, on its own history page, refers to the actor as "Italia Conti" or "Italia" throughout. Tacyarg (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's true, because it's her as the tutor who started it, not as the actress specifically. Both forms Italia Conti and Italia Emily Stella Conti are correct - the proposal is to support specificity and how Italia preferred to be known publicly. A proposal has been sent to the school for this change to be made in their publicity. EveShew (talk) 16:51, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per convincing nomination and subsequent comments by the nominator. Since the school has indeed streamlined its name, the main title header of its Wikipedia entry should be likewise streamlined, with the longer name remaining, of course, as a redirect. As for the actress, since the full name was her stage name, WP:NATURAL should prevail. The current redlinks Miss Italia Conti as well as Italia Conti (actress) should inevitably redirect to Italia Emily Stella Conti, while users searching for her as simply "Italia Conti" will find the link to her name in the lede of the school's article. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for your support. To clarify her stage name and how her preferential style happened to be her full name - Italia Emily Stella Conti was both her full name and her stage name. EveShew (talk) 16:54, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I do not see any evidence that the actress was commonly known by her full name. DuncanHill (talk) 16:44, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Other than Wikipedia or links to Wiki a search for Italia Conti brings up more top level results for the school and not for my aunt, where as her full name (which happened to also be her stage name) returns more accurate results - surely Wiki should follow this. EveShew (talk) 16:53, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @DuncanHill I noticed that a previous proposal for a similar change was made and that you opposed that too. However there is no evidence that she was commonly know by her shortened style - only the kids at school would call her Miss Conti, publicly she was know as Italia Emily Stella Conti as can be found when searching her name.
    In the rules it states "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." could you not argue that ambiguity (defined as the quality of being open to more than one interpretation; inexactness) is more likely to be caused when a more popular result is returned for their name. I think @Roman Spinner is absolutely right in how we might solve this conflict of search/result.
    Could you be persuaded to reconsider your view? EveShew (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @EveShew: There is still NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that she was known as "Italia Emily Stella Conti". As Tacyarg points out above the results from the British Newspaper Archive are overwhelmingly supportive of her NOT being known by that. You have given exactly no evidence to support your contention. Show us the sources! DuncanHill (talk) 17:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    To name a few:
    - Conrad’s Drama: Contemporary Reviews and Observations. (2019). Netherlands: Brill.
    - Mills, C. (2018). Where the Rainbow Ends. (n.p.): Creative Media Partners, LLC.(references in the publication to the first show that she put on)
    - Lawrence, G. (2011). A Star Danced. United Kingdom: Benediction Classics. (Gertrude talks about her, introducing her with her full name and then referring to her as Italia or Miss Conti, with a couple of additional references to her wby full name)
    - Aldrich, R. S. (1956). Gertrude Lawrence as Mrs. A: An Intimate Biography of the Great Star. United Kingdom: Companion Book Club. (as above about Gertrude)
    - Oxford Dictionary of National Biography: Constable-Crane. (2004). United Kingdom: Oxford University Press.
    Online:
    - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3242784/
    - https://peoplepill.com/people/italia-emily-stella-conti/news
    - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Conrad_s_Drama/MbSrDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Italia+Emily+Stella+Conti&pg=PA150&printsec=frontcover
    Note that none of those online were Italia Conti, but her full style.
    PS Please be more courteous in your response (and open to your mind being changed), I'm following this up as a family member - there are naturally personal contexts which may be making this more important at this time. EveShew (talk) 17:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Also note that in the previous comment by 2 out of 3 sources support the full use of her name. Your recent comment about it being 'overwhelming' evidence does not provide accuracy to what has been searched for - especially with one contradictory result being Miss Conti, which of course she was. She was Miss Italia Emily Stella Conti - her surname is not in dispute here. EveShew (talk) 17:33, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The ODNB repeatedly calls her "Italia Conti". "Italia Conti became a boarder at Kensington Academy;", "determined to become an actress, Italia Conti frequented the theatres", "Italia Conti was a lady of immensely strong character, passionately fond of children, and able to discern and develop their nascent abilities", where it does not call her "Italia Conti" it only calles her "Italia". I'll look up you other references when I have the time. DuncanHill (talk) 17:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    True, it lists her by her full stage name - as that is what people would search.
    Thank you for taking the time (when you do), I hope the multiple The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstars that you have pull through for my great Aunt. EveShew (talk) 17:49, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per COMMONNAME. --Ortizesp (talk) 19:28, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the RM of only a month ago. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Not even the website of the school itself calls her by her full name. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:15, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name/Title of Article[edit]

Hi all,

The wonderful Tacyarg suggested that this would be the appropriate place to ask a question.

I'm new to the auditing business and plan to review, research and contribute about all UK Drama School pages.

In looking at Italia Conti and previous contributions that multiple attempts have been made by other users to relocate/change the title of the page from 'Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts' to simply 'Italia Conti'. However these have all been rejected (various reasons). It does seem true that 'Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts' is a defunct name, and after phoning the school today, the confirmed that the business name has changed to simply 'Italia Conti' It seems that one reason is that 'Italia Conti' is the name of the actress who founded the school, her full name is 'Italia Emily Stella Conti'. So the page couldn't move without either changing their title. It seems to me that the most sensible thing to do is to change both pages: 'Italia Conti Academy of Theatre Arts' to 'Italia Conti' 'Italia Conti' (the actresss) to 'Italia Emily Stella Conti' - however a previous user said that this is in defiance of common name. However there are a number of examples of full names being used, and it also seems that people searching Italia Conti would in the first instance be looking for the school before the person.

Obviously there are good reasons to leave Italia Conti (actress) as she is with that name but in doing so it might create confusion elsewhere.

I believe someone suggested previously in support of a change "Support per convincing nomination and subsequent comments by the nominator. Since the school has indeed streamlined its name, the main title header of its Wikipedia entry should be likewise streamlined, with the longer name remaining, of course, as a redirect. As for the actress, since the full name was her stage name, WP:NATURAL should prevail. The current redlinks Miss Italia Conti as well as Italia Conti (actress) should inevitably redirect to Italia Emily Stella Conti, while users searching for her as simply "Italia Conti" will find the link to her name in the lede of the school's article. — @ Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)"

Do you agree? Being new to this, how might one suggest a double change so as to not flag an error on both issues, to make it clear that Italia Conti is the drama school without using the suffix "Education Establishment" which might not be right either, and keep everything clear? DramaSchoolAuditor (talk) 20:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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