Talk:International Wrestling Cartel
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I need help in verifying my reliable source. I'm getting information directly from the company's website and no where else. I have been rejected by NotTheFakeJTP and want to know the specific information they feel is not reliable. ZanderGabriel (talk) 20:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- ZanderGabriel The issue is two-fold. First while it is generally permitted to use the subject of an article as the source for some information this has significant limitations, read the section at WP:ABOUTSELF for more info. The second issue is that references produced by the subject of an article can never be used to establish notability. In general you need three reliable sources that are independent of the subject and provide more than just passing coverage. Some other good further reading is WP:GNG, WP:NCORP, and WP:THREE.
- I decided to comment since it's been a while and no one else had replied, however I'm going to leave this open so a more experienced wikipedian can help you out as well, but I think you should revert your resubmission of the draft, as it will not pass in current form and draft reviewers get frustrated when people keep re-submitting a draft without addressing the issues. I also noticed you used Wikipedia as a source, this is not allowed so you will need to find other sources, more at WP:CIRC, be well 74.73.230.173 (talk) 00:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hello ZanderGabriel! Wikipedia determines whether a subject is suitable for inclusion by examining the amount of coverage in independent and journalistic sources. Press releases, interviews, event announcements, and blogs are not suitable for this. Additionally, we expect articles to be summarized from those sources. Please see WP:SIGCOV for more information. Thank you! Waggie (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you @Waggie: and @74.73.230.173:. I've found other sources to cite. This is a Pro wrestling page. Many of the wrestlers have moved on to better companies and I'm hoping to redirect people searching for those wrestlers back to this page, ultimately our site. I showed evidence of those more famous wrestlers being in our company, showing their new name changes. I removed some of the information and focused on the championships and our main tournament. I also removed a picture because someone flagged it as copyright, although it was from our own website. I'll get to that later in understanding how else to cite it. I appreciate the help and hope it gets approved soon! ZanderGabriel (talk) 17:40, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi there ZanderGabriel. You seem to be misunderstanding. Wikipedia articles are to be summarized from what independent and journalistic sources say on that specific topic (not other subjects, such as the wrestlers). You really need to review WP:SIGCOV. They are not a means to "redirect people searching for those wrestlers [to] our site" and Wikipedia is explicitly not a venue for marketing your organization, and you should be aware that Wikipedia editors take a dim view of such attempts. Regarding the sources, you're basing a great deal of your content on information from your own website, and from cagematch.net, which appears to primarily be a blog/forum site with volunteer authors, rather than an established journalistic publication with a reputation for accurate fact-checking and editorial control. In fact, none of your sources discuss IWC at all, except for the ProWrestling Fandom Wiki, which is also not a reliable source. I should also note that you need to properly declare your conflict of interest on your userpage, you need to state your connection to IWC specifically. Thank you and best wishes. Waggie (talk) 19:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hello @Waggie: I've just added in local news papers and other journalistic publications. We're a small company and there's little to no reporting done on each of our shows, but more on the wrestlers who are now famous. I can cite each event I listed with the actual video, but that's not a journalistic publications. If I'm citing a show and able to provide citation to the literal video of that show, would that be reliable? There are journalistic publications dedicated to wrestling, but they are report news that is often not confirmed (albeit, like most news) and I don't consider them reliable. Those are my only options if the direct video source isn't acceptable. If I should stop pinging you, please let me know.
- I will add my connection to my user page. I appreciate the attention and help, truly. thanks.ZanderGabriel (talk) 19:43, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi ZanderGabriel, unfortunately, you still don't seem to have reviewed WP:SIGCOV.. To quote: ""Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail...". None of the new sources you have added speak in any detail about IWC, they are extremely brief passing mentions in the context of a show or a wrestler, some are even press releases which aren't journalistic. Additionally, you still have not removed/reduced the poorly sourced/primary sourced content in your draft. Articles about the shows and/or the wrestlers aren't useful as they are not the topic of the article, IWC is. Waggie (talk) 20:00, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Waggie: I did read and just explained the lack of reliable sources but what I can offer. There is no significant coverage for ever event back to 2002. No one reported about it. No one has interviewed the owners on the history. I have some articles for very recent, but only video evidence of the past shows. I assume I can't make this page then? There are lesser reliable and fewer sources on other wrestling promotion pages.ZanderGabriel (talk) 22:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi ZanderGabriel, unfortunately, you still don't seem to have reviewed WP:SIGCOV.. To quote: ""Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail...". None of the new sources you have added speak in any detail about IWC, they are extremely brief passing mentions in the context of a show or a wrestler, some are even press releases which aren't journalistic. Additionally, you still have not removed/reduced the poorly sourced/primary sourced content in your draft. Articles about the shows and/or the wrestlers aren't useful as they are not the topic of the article, IWC is. Waggie (talk) 20:00, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi there ZanderGabriel. You seem to be misunderstanding. Wikipedia articles are to be summarized from what independent and journalistic sources say on that specific topic (not other subjects, such as the wrestlers). You really need to review WP:SIGCOV. They are not a means to "redirect people searching for those wrestlers [to] our site" and Wikipedia is explicitly not a venue for marketing your organization, and you should be aware that Wikipedia editors take a dim view of such attempts. Regarding the sources, you're basing a great deal of your content on information from your own website, and from cagematch.net, which appears to primarily be a blog/forum site with volunteer authors, rather than an established journalistic publication with a reputation for accurate fact-checking and editorial control. In fact, none of your sources discuss IWC at all, except for the ProWrestling Fandom Wiki, which is also not a reliable source. I should also note that you need to properly declare your conflict of interest on your userpage, you need to state your connection to IWC specifically. Thank you and best wishes. Waggie (talk) 19:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you @Waggie: and @74.73.230.173:. I've found other sources to cite. This is a Pro wrestling page. Many of the wrestlers have moved on to better companies and I'm hoping to redirect people searching for those wrestlers back to this page, ultimately our site. I showed evidence of those more famous wrestlers being in our company, showing their new name changes. I removed some of the information and focused on the championships and our main tournament. I also removed a picture because someone flagged it as copyright, although it was from our own website. I'll get to that later in understanding how else to cite it. I appreciate the help and hope it gets approved soon! ZanderGabriel (talk) 17:40, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
ZanderGabriel, we're not asking for coverage of every event. We're asking for significant coverage about the organization itself. If there isn't significant coverage about the organization, then perhaps it's not time yet for there to be an article about IWC. Regarding other wrestling promotion pages, there's a lot of problematic pages on Wikipedia, would you expect us to make the problem worse? Waggie (talk) 22:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Waggie, I've provided new sources from the Sun, 411 Mania, Fightful Wrestling, Zona Wrestling, the Pittsburgh City Newspaper, and Anthony Bourdain's 'Parts Unknown' episode when he attended a show in 2018. I'm now being told that because I work for the company I cannot produce their page. Coverage has increased in the past few years, where these new sources came from, but the early years in 2002-2012 are sparse. I am not receiving payment, nor was I asked to create the page. There is no conflict of interest. Do I have to disclose on the page itself that I wrestle for them? Are there citations I should remove in order to publish the page? I am citing the literal shows on the company sites. I would expect with the sources I can cite, my involvement in the company and amount of information I'm publishing to be more than acceptable. ZanderGabriel (talk) 00:51, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
- I've added this company's logo, provided by the sole owner Mr Justin Plummer. ZanderGabriel (talk) 18:40, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- Waggie, I've provided new sources from the Sun, 411 Mania, Fightful Wrestling, Zona Wrestling, the Pittsburgh City Newspaper, and Anthony Bourdain's 'Parts Unknown' episode when he attended a show in 2018. I'm now being told that because I work for the company I cannot produce their page. Coverage has increased in the past few years, where these new sources came from, but the early years in 2002-2012 are sparse. I am not receiving payment, nor was I asked to create the page. There is no conflict of interest. Do I have to disclose on the page itself that I wrestle for them? Are there citations I should remove in order to publish the page? I am citing the literal shows on the company sites. I would expect with the sources I can cite, my involvement in the company and amount of information I'm publishing to be more than acceptable. ZanderGabriel (talk) 00:51, 21 September 2020 (UTC)