Talk:Indian roller

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Featured articleIndian roller is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 2, 2021.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 6, 2021Good article nomineeListed
July 5, 2021Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Indian roller. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:25, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Indian roller. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay let's roll with this one...[edit]

Okay @LittleJerry: let's try and buff this one (what inspired the choice of this one?) - would be good to get a subcontinent bird species Featured. Maybe @Aa77zz: and @Shyamal: can help Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:16, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to help too. This one has been on my watchlist for ages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:28, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was inspired to do this one because of exactly what you said. I wanted to do an Indian bird and thought about the Indian peafowl but that would be a bit much. I'm going to work on turtle as so it would be better to do an easier article alongside it. Anyway, do you have any book recommendation? LittleJerry (talk) 22:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber, BhagyaMani we need to replace some of the very old sources. Several are pre-WWII. LittleJerry (talk) 12:18, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which ones you mean? In any case, lets discuss this also with Shyamal: you most likely added them years ago? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see any issues with keeping old references, unless the facts themselves have subsequently been questioned. In fact some old descriptions tend to be better as those references were meant for museum workers as opposed to what is given in field guides - and meant merely for distinguishing / identification. Shyamal (talk) 13:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Shyamal - let's take sources on a case by case basis. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree to keep them. I didn't yet find any source about Indian roller in Iran. You? But a few locality records in Nepal Terai. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:14, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay so how are we going to do this? What's the gameplan?, I found these papers: [1] [2], [3]. Any books to recommend? LittleJerry (talk) 22:53, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The first 2 are already referenced. Sorry, I can't really recommend a book, have only field guides with rudimentary info. I think we'll have to build this one up with refs to journal articles. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great work so far! Do you think the 2nd paragraph re The Indochinese roller is darker, ... in the section Description is needed? I'm tempted to remove this. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 11:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a segment on similar species. The material on teh European roller should be moved to here as well. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree - we should explain how the Indian roller differs from the Indochinese roller -they were formerly considered as conspecific and two species are sympatric in west Assam. The species could be confused - WP:Birds suggests that similar species are mentioned under Description. We already mention the European roller that migrates across the range of the Indian roller. - Aa77zz (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found the Indian roller listed in checklists of birds in Vietnam and Cambodia. Certainly erroneous? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@BhagyaMani: I think t hat must be an older source thinking of affinis as a subspecies still Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Casliber:: not that old, published in Forktail issues a) of 2011, in Vietnam at https://archive.org/details/forktail2720unse/page/115/mode/1up 1st column; b) 2014, in Cambodia at https://archive.org/details/forktail3020unse/page/75/mode/1up 1st column; c) 2015, in Yunnan at https://archive.org/details/forktail3120unse/page/51/mode/1up 2nd column. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BhagyaMani: I am thinking that most sources kept them as single species - see this until very recently. I'd be almost certain that is what has happened in all these forktails and all these actually refer to affinis. Rasmussen's opinion carries considerable weight and she highlighted the hybrid zones (i.e. leaning towards the lump rather than split) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

  • Rasmussen and Anderton 2012 (cited in article) is a large authoritative modern field guide but as such has nothing on breeding etc.
  • HBW Vol. 6 available here (registration required) has a short section on p. 271 on the species. There is also a large section on the family Coraciidae (pp 342-370) which is very general and probably not useful. These are written by Fry.
  • Fry, Fry and Harris (1992) Kingfishers, Bee-eaters and Rollers see Amazon here has three pages on the Indian roller (pp 289-291) (The range map currently in the article cites this book as its source but the map on p. 98 in Fry et al is tiny and doesn't include the hatched area in the Arabian Peninsula)
  • BWP Cramp 1985 Vol 5 IV pp 778-783 (cited in article) has a section on the Indian roller - even though the range of the Indian Roller hardly extends into the Western Palearctic area considered by the BWP. The account is cited by Fry and is much more detailed than the above sources. The BWP includes inline cites (including to Lamba (1963) and Stonor (1944) that are now in the Further reading section).

- Aa77zz (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So who is willing to purchase which? I'll take Fry, Fry and Harris (1992). LittleJerry (talk) 14:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have copies of all except HBW but I can consult HBW online at the Internet Archive. Send me an email. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:24, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph on the voice is uncited. Although my sources all describe the calls I struggle with representing the calls using the Latin alphabet. Fry has "chack" and "tschow", Rasmussen has KCHYal and grRK-grRK-grRK. Cramp has "k'yow", "kak" and "chack" and alsp "kri -- kri" given by both birds during copulation. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Listen to its call : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSjFyvPUuaA -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
LittleJerry : the chapter on Indian roller in Fry and Fry is online, a 2010 edition, see https://books.google.com/books?id=hFSdA6xYqRMC&lpg=PP2&ots=uP_VKylsUM&lr&pg=PA289#v=onepage&f=false, though not all pages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd get working on this tommorrow. LittleJerry (talk) 21:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Super! Meanwhile I downloaded also the 3rd page of Fry & Fry, in which they referenced only Cramp (1985). How should we handle this on the page : always reference both? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They're different enough to be cited separately. Anyhow, I'll do the description and voice for now. I'll leave the you, Aa77zz and Casliber to sort out the rest. LittleJerry (talk) 21:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz, Cramp describes the tail feather colors as "much as C. garrulus". How does it describe the tail feather colors of the European roller? LittleJerry (talk) 23:21, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You can instead refer to description in the book chapter by Edwards (1764). I just edited + named this ref. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
LittleJerry: I assume you are referring to the text on p. 778 in the Field characters section: "Wing and tail colours much as C. garrulus but patterns more contrasting with greater extend of pale blue across primary coverts and outer section of primaries obvious in flight."
There is only a very brief mention of tail feathers in the Field characters section of the C. garralus article (Cramp IV p. 764) "... pale green-blue outer webs to tail feathers, ...".
Note that the individual tail feathers of C. benghalensis (t1, t2 etc) are described by Cramp on p. 782 - but Wikipedia articles generally don't include this level of detail. Fry p. 289 has "The tail is not streamered, and its azured sides can be hard to see." - Aa77zz (talk) 11:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be accurate to say that the tail feathers are blue and purple (like the wings) but the sources don't describe it like that. LittleJerry (talk) 13:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See Edwards' description: The rump and covert-feathers above the tail are of a fine blue or ultramarine colour; the middle feathers of the tail are green; the outside feathers are of an ultramarine blue, .. I was lucky to sight + photograph the Indian roller at several places, and think that his description and colours mentioned fit perfectly !! -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also - which length should we use and why...values are (annoyingly) different. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have 3 values that don't differ significantly: +/- 31 cm in Ali & Ripley (1983; Birds of Indian SC); 30-34 cm in Fry & Fry (2010); 33 cm in Grimmett et al. (2015; Birds of Nepal). We can references all of them? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 21:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay - or Fry & Fry sort of covers all of them really Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've noticed that it is not uncommon for different sources to give significant different lengths for a bird species. Sometimes the range of lengths given by two sources don't even overlap. Although the long articles in Cramp include detailed measurements of different bird parts from various studies, these do not include the overall length of a live bird. For the Indian roller, there is the additional complication that the sources usually lump the larger affinis, with the nominate and indica. Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 p. 178 treat affinis separately and give >31 cm for affinis and <31cm for benghalensis.
Rasmussen and Anderton discuss the overall length of live bird species in the introduction (Vol. 2 p. 18). Rasmussen works with skins and for the book has taken the length of live specimens from Ali and Ripley (1983). Confusingly the lengths given by Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 are of live birds but in vol 2 the measurements were obtained from museum skins - measured from the base of the skull to the tip of the tail - and are much smaller. - Aa77zz (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Possible that Ali & Ripley (1983)'s value is based on earlier accounts in the JNHBS about Indian roller in India only. I'll try to find out. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that details about size difference of bills + wings of females + males are worthwhile to add? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to replace the old sources (aside from the historically important ones in taxonomy). With the general sources Aa77zz highlighted above, there's no reason for to use sources this ancient. The FAC reviewers will pick up on that. LittleJerry (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. With Fry, Rasmussen and Cramp, we should still do some expanding though. LittleJerry (talk) 22:13, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz, I presume you didn't send BhagyaMani your files of Fry, Rasmussen and Cramp. LittleJerry (talk) 11:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
LittleJerry, Correct, I did not. To do so I need an email address. - Aa77zz (talk) 11:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BhagyaMani, you can get the sources from Aa77zz if you want. You don't need to use the 1934 source. LittleJerry (talk) 12:52, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can you make this available at a cloud for a very short time? Once I downloaded, I'll let you know so you can delete it. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz? I don't know how to use cloud. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cloud can be at google drive or dropbox or wetransfer or any other company that offers webspace for free. You upload a file + share it via a link so that those who have the link can download it. You can post the link here and remove the file as soon as I let you know that I downloaded it. Let me know if you need an example. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BhagyaMani, an email is less hassle for me - the files aren't large. - Aa77zz (talk) 20:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have the files here [4] LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BhagyaMani, did you get the papers? LittleJerry (talk) 19:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet. Am not ready to share my personal email address and don't have one at gmail, so will have to register one for that purpose only. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BhagyaMani. You don't need a gmail account. I downloaded it when not logged in just to try it. LittleJerry (talk) 19:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aaah, SUPER!! Sorry, I didn't see the link. Just downloaded 3 pdfs in a zip. Fantastic !! Thanks a ton. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great! The files have been deleted now. LittleJerry (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think I like Cramp's chapter best, as he provides so many details and the sources, many of them published in the JBNHS. Saw Ali & Ripley cited a couple of times. Gimme some time to read it all. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But we can't overuse one source. LittleJerry (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't intend to. But we can or I would like to follow up on some of the sources cited in Cramp's. E.g. his description of "bare parts" on page 782 is copy-pasted from Ali & Ripley (1970), but this description is exactly the same as in Ali's article about the Hyderabad bird survey, published in JBNHS 1938, one of his early articles. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aa77zz? Casliber Any suggestions on what to do next? LittleJerry (talk) 12:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have a few RL issues that are distracting me and feel as if I need some undisturbed time to digest this one. My idea was to digest all the scanned book material first before going to journals. Article still needs a para at end of description on similar species and how it can be distinguished from them. Also I suspect more could be added on habitat. I am sorry have been distracted. I'd do these myself but am a bit tied up for the next 24 hours. Feel free to add otherwise I'll get onto it later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking the rolling behavior is significant enough for its own sub-section. LittleJerry (talk) 14:04, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How about a cladogram based on Johansson et al. (2018)? I can design one, if u think is worthwhile to add. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:24, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. LittleJerry (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've already insert a cladogram in the article on the genus Coracias and a larger one in the family Coraciidae. - Aa77zz (talk) 20:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added the former. LittleJerry (talk) 20:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The books don't state how long they are nestlings. They state that they are fledglings for 30 to 35 days. LittleJerry (talk) 12:13, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This paper goes into more detail and it was cited but someone removed it for alledgedly being a predatory source. LittleJerry (talk) 23:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is this the same : http://idosi.org/wjz/wjz4%284%292009/3.pdf ? But a permanent link, the cloudfront one is only temporary. The publisher of the 'World Journal of Zoology' is indeed listed as a predatory publisher, see at https://predatoryjournals.com/publishers/#I. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 23:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that length of cecum is worthwhile to add, or too specific? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 21:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not. LittleJerry (talk) 21:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Last-minute pre-GAN check...[edit]

Right folks, can anyone see any issues outstanding before GAN. @BhagyaMani: we need to have consistent referencing. I generally prefer not to use ampersands in the author lists but don't care enough to argue about it - if you really want to use them then all references need to have them. Either way (all refs or none using ampersands) is okay, we just need to pick a format and stick to it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, can someone with a better knowledge of the subcontinent's geography than me figure out which subspecies are in the photos? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Telangana is a state in eastern India, carved out from Andhra P. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Re ref Mitra (1898) : I did not find this in any of the 2 issues of the Journal of Asiatic Society that are online. So it must have been published in issue 3 > that was announced in the Proceedings of the Asiatic Society in that year, see https://archive.org/details/proceedingsofasi1898asia/page/202/mode/1up. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The anthropology parts of the Asiatic Society journal are a parallel series (Part III, but issue 2) to the ones that BHL has scanned. Shyamal (talk) 12:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Shyamal. I also found the link to southasiaarchive. Is the reference in the page correct? Or should the Anthropology series be ref'ed differently? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Have no idea how "Part III" after the volume could be inserted in an appropriate way with our current citation templates. Shyamal (talk) 14:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Have tried using the series parameter, not sure if it is misuse. Shyamal (talk) 14:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks ok to me. I used this parm so often, and without any error messages. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:59, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we're ready. I'm gonna focus my attention on turtle soon, just ping if you need me. LittleJerry (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, bombs away....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wish all of you the best with you GAN. What I see above illustrates the high-point of WP cooperation. William Harris (talk) 09:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber: is it possible to also include Shyamal to the GAN? S/he contributed a lot of content to this page in all the past years. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:55, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not really a problem BhagyaMani, I am happy to help without having to be listed. ("he" btw) Shyamal (talk) 12:14, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, up to you. But thought you should be acknowledged too. I went mugger, you might have seen that. And planning to GAN this perhaps by next week. Would you like to join in ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber, BhagyaMani, Aa77zz and Shyamal, the review is on. LittleJerry (talk) 00:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Indian roller/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MeegsC (talk · contribs) 12:30, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]


I'll review this one. It may take me a few days to post my first comments. MeegsC (talk) 12:30, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is already in good shape; it has a lot of good detail, and is generally well-written. That said, there are some nitpiks. If you'll strike these out as you deal with them, it will help me to know what you've fixed.

  • The lede should be a summary of the article. Right now, it has no information about the diet or reproductive ecology of these birds. That should be added.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest you add the basics of the nest, number of young, etc. Something like: "The female lays 3–5 eggs in a cavity or crevice, which is lined with a thin mat of straw or feathers."
  • The map in the infobox has two colours, but only one colour is explained in the key.
Ahoy @Aa77zz: I think this must be that paler/hashed area is vagrant range. But I have not seen key for map in Fry Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Revised legend based on map in iucn red list: hashed area is for non-breeding range. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The map in Fry is tiny (Plate 37 page 98). It doesn't include the shaded area on the Arabian Peninsula depicted in our range map - although Fry is the cited source. I've looked at other range maps. The shaded area is not included on the map in Cramp (p. 779). The shaded area is depicted as a Non-Breeding" area on the map on the Cornell/HBW webpage here (subscription required) but not on the ebird page (also Cornell). It is depicted on the IUCN map as a Non-breeding area here. The map on Xeno-Canto does not include it. I've added the IUCN as an additional source for the map on Commons. - Aa77zz (talk) 09:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The iucn assessors apparently neglected the report on breeding birds in the Arabian peninsula, which I had added a while ago to section Conservation: acc. to this report, it IS indeed breeding there, see ref 49. So I suggest that we change the colours in map. Or how should we handle this discrepancy? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, two of the iucn rl compilers are also authors of above report, viz Symes & Taylor. Strange though that the report is not listed in the bibliography of this account. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:22, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What discrepancy? The sources agree that the Indian roller breeds in United Arab Emirates and northern Oman - they differ only in the non-breeding area. I cannot see a range map for the Indian roller in Symes et al (ref 49). They mention breeding but that could be in the United Arab Emirates and northern Oman. Aa77zz (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For some birds listed in this appendix, they mentioned individual countries or regions. So I assumed that when referring to Arabian peninsula, they mean not only UAE and Oman, but also Saudi Arabia. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few eBird sightings in the shaded area recorded here
  • Check the footnote numbers. MOS says they should be in numerical order, but they aren't in several cases.
Fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:28, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the paragraph about the first description of the species, in the sentence "...derived from a drawing by illustrator Joseph Dandridge, who in turn received a drawing...", there should be a "had" before received.
Fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Description section, it should be "broad-winged" not broad winged.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The bill is bill tinged with brown at the base." There's an extra "bill" in there. And what colour is the rest of the bill, if the base is brown?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider linking some of the potentially less well-known body parts (maybe tail coverts, underwing coverts, primary coverts, lesser coverts, axillaries) with birdgloss entries.
Linked some, though they will come up as duplinks I suspect Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:33, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... with a similar pale blue band across the most lateral five or six flight feathers" You mean distal rather than lateral (i.e. the feathers on the wing that are farthest from the body)
Yes/Done. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:36, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The colours look dull when the bird is perching..." Perched rather than perching.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "mid June" and "mid August" should have dashes.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A scanning electron micrograph of the Indian roller's blue feathers shows a channel-type nanostructure with β-keratin rods and air channels." What does this even mean?!
Revised. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:56, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Revised further, its positioning could still be reconsidered. Shyamal (talk) 06:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider breaking the vocalizations out into a titled subsection.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Would this subsection not better be placed under Behaviour and ecology? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is standard to have it under Description for bird articles. LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kaarsch calls are made during rolling displays and increase in frequency and volume as it flies towards an intruder." "It" should be replaced by "the bird".
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When perched side by side, rollers make chattering heard as staccato." I think there must be some words missing here, as this sentence makes no sense.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider breaking similar species into a subsection (Similar species).
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to come! MeegsC (talk) 21:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Errr (waves arms crazily)....@MeegsC:....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Arg! Sorry about the delay. Too many irons in the fire!
  • I'm a bit confused by some of the Distribution section. For instance, the sentence "In the early 1970s, it was observed in the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran where it was a common winter visitor." suggests that it is no longer found in that country. Is that correct or does this need to be made clearer? And the sentence "It has been recorded as a summer visitor to Jalalabad in northeastern Afghanistan." suggests it's only there in the summer. It would be good if this section clearly identified where the bird breeds, where it's resident and where it winters, if those are different places. It's pretty piecemeal at the moment.
  • Link "roundabout" for our American readers.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They patrol their territory by flying at the tree tops or three-stories high and when an intruder is spotted, they are driven away by a fast rolling flight." Is this meant to say that they fly at treetop height? It's not clear at the moment. In the second half of the sentence "an intruder" should be followed by "it is", not "they are".
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It has also been observed perching in trees and shrubs at a height of 3–9 m (10–30 ft) from where it forages for ground insects." As a birder, I think I understand what you mean here, but it's not going to be clear to nonbirders how a bird "forages for ground insects" from 9 metres! Perhaps "It perches in trees and shrubs at a height of 3-9 m (10-30 ft), dropping to the ground when it spots prey"?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The display of the Indian roller is aerobatic with twists and turns and is attracted by fires." Do fires really cause the bird to make display flights? Or are there two completely unrelated details in this sentence?
  • It has been observed to follow tractors for disturbed invertebrates "observed following" rather than "observed to follow".
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Crows are driven away from nests and have even been recorded repeatedly divebombing an Egyptian vulture." Right now, this sentence says crows divebomb Egyptian vultures, which I'm sure is not what you mean.
  • In the sentence "... display to each other with bows, dropped wings, fanned tails..." there should be an "and" before fanned tails.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The fledge period" should either be "the fledging period" or rewritten to say "The young fledge after 30–35 days."
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Indian roller descends to the ground to capture insects and too a lesser extent amphibians, reptiles, birds, and small mammals. should be "to a lesser extent", not "too a lesser extent".
  • In the food and feeding section, the whole paragraph is singular except the last sentence. That should be changed to avoid the jarring change.
  • It is attracted to swarms of winged termites, and as many as 40 birds have been seen to perch on a 70 m (230 ft) stretch of electric wire. Were the 40 birds on the wire because of a swarm of winged termities? That's not clear here. Maybe add "to take advantage of one swarm", or some such?
  • "As of 2016, the Indian roller is listed as Least Concern on the IUCN Red List..." should be "...listed as a species of least concern" And "least concern" should be lowercase, per WP:MOS.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there no population estimate for India?!
I have no idea. I did not add that into the lead and have tweaked it (I mean it is almost certainly true but have not seen anything confirming or quantifying it) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:58, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Adding its chopped feathers to fodder for cows was believed to increase the latters milk yield, giving them also the Telugu name of pɑːla-pitta or milk bird." Latters should have an apostrophe, and you've switched tenses from singular to plural here "its --> them".
Done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:00, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ping me when you've had the chance to deal with these, and I'll take one final look; nearly there now! MeegsC (talk) 12:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay @MeegsC: over to you - thanks for being thorough Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:00, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are two issues that don't appear to have been sorted yet. I'll paste them in again below:

  • I'm a bit confused by some of the Distribution section. For instance, the sentence "In the early 1970s, it was observed in the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran where it was a common winter visitor." suggests that it is no longer found in that country. Is that correct or does this need to be made clearer? And the sentence "It has been recorded as a summer visitor to Jalalabad in northeastern Afghanistan." suggests it's only there in the summer. It would be good if this section clearly identified where the bird breeds, where it's resident and where it winters, if those are different places. It's pretty piecemeal at the moment.
@MeegsC: Re Shadegan County: I found about a handful of publications about birds in the Shadegan wetlands dating 2010+, but Indian roller is not listed in any of them. So it's not clear whether it is still a winter visitor there. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Re summer visitor in Jalalabad: yes, only there in summer. Lets ask @LittleJerry and Casliber: to confirm. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's hear what they have to say. I guess I'd suggest adding something like "More recent reports no longer include the roller." or something similar to the sentence about Iran, to make it clear the bird is no longer regularly seen there.
I didn't write that part. Casliber? Aa77zz, Shyamal? LittleJerry (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure that I can embellish without violating OR. The source recalls records from the 1970s and I can imagine that whole area being easier to do birdwatching then than now (well, since the early 1980s actually) so who knows. I am busy with RL chores. Need to sleep and look at records again. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that if the section is tweaked somewhat to indicate broadly where the species is resident, where it winters and where it breeds, with an indication of where the status is uncertain, that will suffice. Right now, I find the very specific locations for Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan a bit odd, given that the article is nowhere near as specific about its occurrence elsewhere. Saying that the last reliable reports of them wintering in Iran date from the 1970s would be perfectly acceptable, I should think.
@MeegsC: I have rearranged it - order is now general resident/summer visitor/vagrant/historical winter visitor, thus moving from confirmed/abundant to vagrant to historical. I often add specific areas at the borders of a bird's range to be as exact as possible regarding distribution - i.e. no point mentioning anywhere specific from the middle of its range as it occurs all around, but I feel the edges (where known) are important. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Casliber; that's pretty much what I was hoping for. MeegsC (talk) 09:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The display of the Indian roller is aerobatic with twists and turns and is attracted by fires." Do fires really cause the bird to make display flights? Or are there two completely unrelated details in this sentence?
revised + added a ref -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's much clearer. Thanks!

Other than that, it looks good! MeegsC (talk) 14:19, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to give this one its star. Nice work, everybody! If you're thinking of taking this to FA, I'd consider adding informative captions to the pictures (i.e. something other than "Bird in location" or "Bird eating insect" – particularly in the newly added gallery. MeegsC (talk) 09:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@MeegsC: Thanks for the thorough review Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also thank you, MeegsC!! -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:30, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TFA in November[edit]

If and when this passes FA review, I suggest it be nominated for TFA on 1 November. As Karnataka's state bird, it's only right that it appears on Karnataka's state day. I also plan to improve a few other articles by then - at least Vidhana Soudha - so that we can have several Karnataka-related entries on 1 November. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 16:53, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Indian_roller&oldid=1206044485"