Talk:Independence Day (United States)/Archive 2

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Independence Day

Independence day is commonly known as 4th July. This day is celebrated annually and dedicated to the unfortunate incident in which the aliens blew up the whitehouse in Balamory, Scotland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.98.98.34 (talk) 14:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I assume this was a simple mistake, but it is commonly know as the Fourth of July (with the word "of"). I cannot even guess what you are referring to. Whitehouse in Scotland? How does Scotland come up? If not for that, I'd assume you confused the holiday with Independence Day (1996 film). Dustin (talk) 14:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3rd this year

Is this hogwash, or should we add that Independence Day also is observed some years on July 3rd or July 5th? Today, for example. Is today Independence Day? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:54, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Other dates?

Should the article include information about the fact that Independence Day is "observed" on July 3rd or July 5th some years, when the 4th falls on a Saturday or Sunday? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:15, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Independence Day isn't observed on those days, the holiday that (some) people get is just moved to a different date when the celebration falls on a weekend anyway. The actual event still takes place on the 4th, which is what the article is about, the rules of public holidays and how they are adjusted for events with fixed calendar dates is presumably already covered under various articles about public holidays and how they work, so doesn't seem necessary to duplicate that here. --87.242.189.106 (talk) 12:46, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Move to "Fourth of July"?

Independence Day may be the official name for it, but no one I've ever met has actually called it that. Everyone calls it the Fourth of July. Under common names conventions, would a move request to Fourth of July be appropriate? --SchutteGod (talk) 18:19, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes--SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 16 October 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


Independence Day (United States) → Fourth of July – This is the most commonly used name for the holiday, with "Independence Day" used sparingly in colloquial language. The title should reflect the most commonly recognized name for the subject. SchutteGod (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 02:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURAL. Also, the proposed new title already redirects here. sst✈ 02:26, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose July 4 is a different topic. If you use "Fourth of July" it will still need to be called Fourth of July (United States). And the current title is more accurate. Further the proposed title frequently means the entire Fourth weekend, and not just this particular day. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 04:43, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, and also oppose "Fourth of July (United States)". Totally inconsistent with other similar titles, like Canada Day or ones at list of national independence days. Also, I don't think non-US people ever heard of "Fourth of July" except Mariah Carey's song from Butterfly and other pop cultures. George Ho (talk) 00:16, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The current title is unambiguous and by far the best title for the topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:16, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
    • As requester: Most voters here do not realize Fourth of July already redirects here. The status of July 4 will not change. This is not a vote on the July 4 article. It is specifically "Fourth of July," the most common name for the holiday in the US, and what is also repeatedly used (in reference to the holiday, not the date) in movies, television, and numerous other cultural references. --SchutteGod (not logged in) 70.181.183.169 (talk) 03:54, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
      • I'm sure I remember quite a well-known film called Independence Day... -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:05, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
        • Which had nothing to do with the American holiday, and if I recall alluded 4th of July only once in the entire film. --SchutteGod (not logged in) 70.181.183.169 (talk) 19:42, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
          • Of course it did. Why do you think it was called that? It may not have been about the holiday, but the title was certainly inspired by the holiday. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:30, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
            • So what? Are we supposed to completely ignore common-name conventions because of one film title? --SchutteGod (not logged in) 70.181.183.169 (talk) 07:24, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
              • No, but it does rather shoot down the notion that the term is rarely used, being used as it was in a major film. And incidentally, outside the USA, the Fourth of July is just one of the 365 days of the year! We would say "American Independence Day" if that's what we meant. The current title is therefore the most unambiguous one. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:43, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As someone not from the US, I do share some concern about this move. I am aware of the date, however if I were to Google Independence Day of US, I wouldn't be writing Forth of July but Independence Day US. This is because, generally the Independence Day is referred to as the Independence Day of the country. Forth of July might be a common name used by the people in US, but it is not for most other places. The current title is unambiguous and suitable for the topic. I also don't agree to the fact that Independence Day is a term used only in colloquial language in the US. Many of the references and the search results yield the articles where "Independence Day" is used alone or along with or interchangeably with "Forth of July". The title of Independence Day (US) is not uncommon enough to be renamed to Forth of July. Yash! 17:22, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Somehow I doubt, with the widespread global influence of US culture in movies, television and the Internet, that "Fourth of July" as a reference to Independence Day is such a foreign term to non-US users. --SchutteGod (not logged in) 70.181.183.169 (talk) 19:47, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION, which indicates that natural titles are preferable even if they're less common (though in this case, it's more common). And as Fourth of July already redirects here, anyone who happens to type in or click on that term is coming to this article anyway, so some of the above concerns are a bit of a wash.--Cúchullain t/c 21:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Not to mobile users. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:08, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Uh, I'm on my cell phone right now, and when I type in Forth of July it redirects here, same as for everyone else.--Cúchullain t/c 16:08, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose fails WP:Criteria. Repeat fails WP:Criteria, look at the guideline. Aside from which Independence Day (Abkhazia) Liberation Day (Northern Mariana Islands) Liberation Day (Rwanda) Republic Day (Philippines). So to move this would be a real statement about the importance to Wikipedia's editors of those nations. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:03, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
    • You've failed to point out exactly why this move "fails" as per WP guidelines (particularly as the linked guidelines seemingly contradict your argument). Linking to nonexistent articles is not convincing evidence. SchutteGod 70.181.183.169 (talk) 19:52, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per others above. Fourth of July is the common name and allows us to use natural disambiguation. And it's long redirected here, which proves the American holiday is already the primary topic for the term. Calidum 03:15, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per others regarding the "Precision" and "Consistency" characteristics of WP:CRITERIA. I would go further to say that I have some doubts that Fourth of July should even be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Independence Day (United States). Looking at the page views for the last 90 days, this redirect barely reaches 50 page views per day.[1] That does not really give confident evidence that "Fourth of July" is in fact a common alternative name worldwide, and people worldwide are specifically searching for that specific term with the intent on looking up the U.S. holiday. (As oppose to a primary redirect like NFL which seems to get over 400 views per day[2]). Zzyzx11 (talk) 13:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose because Independence Day is not "used sparingly in colloquial language," it's actually the name of the federal holiday. Fourth of July is the colloquial form. —2macia22 (talk) 15:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Independence Day is definitely "used sparingly in colloquial language". --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
    • This move request is not based on the official name of the holiday, but the term most often used to refer to it, per WP:COMMONAME. --SchutteGod (not logged in) 70.181.183.169 (talk) 07:24, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Natural disambiguation is the best choice here, and the new title already redirects here, anyway. kennethaw88 • talk 03:14, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Fair warning about impeding "bring back the Brits" PoV pushing, along fringe viewpoint and undue weight lines

I ran into this statement at Talk:Fajr decade:

"I myself long for the return of British colonial rule in America, celebrate July 4th only begrudgingly, and will find a way of getting that into our article on Independence Day (United States) if I can. -Darouet (talk) 17:52, 25 February 2016 (UTC)"

So, be on the lookout someone trying to inject alternative-history fantasy into this article, roughly equivalent to "I myself long for the return of the Roman Empire's rule over Britain".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:41, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2016

Edit Request: Please add information pertaining to the important historical fact that although our founding fathers officially declared independence in 1776, it was not actually gained until after the American Revolution and the signing the Treaty of Paris, in 1783. It should also be noted that even after that, for nearly forty years all was not smooth sailing for the U.S. and its U.K. relations - literally, since serious conflicts continued until the end of the War of 1812, in 1815. (I believe too many Americans are unaware of these kinds of historical details that our traditions tend to omit or ignore.)

JCrounse (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — JJMC89 (T·C) 20:13, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

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Rwanda Liberation Day reference (Request for edits--July 4, 2017)

Hello, as the page is semi-protected and I am a new user I cannot edit it. However, in the "Other Countries" section it makes reference ambiguously to the United States stating that "[July 4] commemorat[es] the end of the 1994 Rwandan Genocide in which the U.S. government also played a role." This sentence is un-cited and seems to imply a positive role when in fact the U.S. played no role in ending the genocide and many reliable sources point out the potentially negative role it played in preventing it (see wikipedia-Rwandan Genocide) In any case the mention of the U.S. government is superfluous, as it has no bearing on the celebration of July 4 as Liberation Day in Rwanda. I believe it should just be removed from the word "Genocide" onward.

Thanks for your help,

--Nzros (talk) 04:00, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I've removed that link altogether. The Rwandan liberation day commemorates the day the RPF troops captured Kigali in 1994, and has nothing to do with the US independence day. American involvement in the civil war and genocide was also limited (it is notable more for inaction than action), and has nothing to do with independence day either.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:23, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

fatalities 25% higher than on regular days, on July 4 days

We could add that: On July 4 days, in the USA, fatalities are 25% higher than a regular day, each year[1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.185.253.2 (talk) 18:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

10 Things You Didn't Know About The Fourth of July

10 Things You Didn't Know About The Fourth of July, see http://mentalfloss.com/article/502369/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-fourth-july — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.80.54.162 (talk) 16:17, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2018

71.38.226.165 (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with a need for alteration. The paragraph under Criticisms is a mess. The connection to slavery is well documented and justified but the reference to Chinese exclusion Act and detention policies for illegal immigrants makes absolutely no sense. How do those topics relate to the historical event or the modern holiday? A slanted editorial is not an appropriate citation. Mathematicianal (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

The reference to Trump is clearly not relevant

What does the detention of illegal immigrants and their children have to do with the 4th of July? Children have been detained and separated by several dozen administrations including Obama, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Johnson, Kennedy and Eisenhower. The criticism relating to slavery is appropriate but prohibiting illegal immigration has nothing at all to do with Independence Day as a historical date nor the modern holiday. Furthermore others have pointed out the citation is questionable. Mathematicianal (talk) 05:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Not only is the remark obviously engaging in irrelevant partisanship since the sentence points to the Trump administration rather than calling it a long-standing national policy but if we're really going to stretch and say that people being detained for breaking immigration laws can be juxtaposed against the 4th of July but then you could also start claiming the prison abolitionist movement has grievance against the 4th for very similar reasons. This is so clearly irrelevant and unsubstantial. Mathematicianal (talk) 06:02, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@Mathematicianal: You don’t need permission to delete WP:UNDUE info, especially according to WP:ONUS. I don’t know what section you are reffering to but just go ahead and remove it, it obviously doesn’t belong here Anon0098 (talk) 06:49, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed it. Double check and make sure it looks good. Anon0098 (talk) 06:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Please clarify opening sentence in Background

"[T]he legal separation of the thirteen colonies from Great Britain" did not occur until the signing of the Treaty of Paris in 1783. To think or state otherwise is a fiction. Were it true, there would have been no Revolutionary War and thousands on both sides would not have died.

The Declaration of Independence is a beautiful document, but alas, it had no legal force in 1776, nor frankly today. It is simply a statement of principles and reasoning, issued by an unauthorized quasi-governmental body with no legal authority to do anything. While the declaration may have been the cause of (the escalation) of military hostilities, it's adoption by itself did not make the British Colonies an independent nation.

2600:1700:8550:F70:25BA:27B4:C501:C5AF (talk) 14:47, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

In a real revolution you don't need permission of the old king--which applies to 1776. Rjensen (talk) 17:17, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Exactly. The British didn't officially recognize the US's independence until 1783, but that's not what made it legal. - BilCat (talk) 20:25, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Revision 966096273 regarding racial elements

The Frederick Douglass edit is WP:UNDUE, only a minor aspect of the actual holiday. The Trump edit is borderline slanderous and is truly astonishing that it was even allowed to be included in the first place. "See Also" is also WP:UNDUE. Please review MOS:SEEALSO, as this article is about July 4th, not June 19th. Please review WP:ONUS as it is your job to gather consensus on the inclusion of controversial information (see previous few talk page sections), and I cannot find a formal consensus in the archives. Start a new section and gather consensus for this information if you absolutely must, but know that I and many others strongly oppose its inclusion. Thanks, Anon0098 (talk) 17:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Unverified statement regarding Trump should be removed!

Please remove unverified statement on Trump regarding family separation policy that was instituted under the Obama administration. Raj208 (talk) 02:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Done, thanks Anon0098 (talk) 18:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Please remove example of 2020 racial inequality protests under "Observance"

Protests against supposed / perceived racial injustice are neither an observance of the 4th of July, nor related to the holiday itself. If this is the standard, than any protest against any holiday or notable historical event, no matter how small or large, can be included as an example of how that holiday/event is observed. This seems untenable.

Agreed.  Done. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Redirects

Curious that 4th of July redirects to Independence Day (United States) but July 4th redirects to July 4. Given that American date format is month then year, shouldn't it be the opposite other way around (i.e. July 4th redirecting here)? Either that or have both redirects point to the same target for consistency? --Jameboy (talk) 12:18, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

No, I think it's good. We do need a page for the date itself, after all. 1700 (talk) 04:09, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Food and Drinks

I'm unsure what to do with the "Food and Drinks" (previously known as "Fourth of July Foods") section that Marshal Davout III added. The list is lengthy and without detail, not to mention it includes lots of miscellaneous and unnecessary items. Should we find a way to include it within the "Customs" section? BappleBusiness (talk) 03:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect Link

Hey-o. While looking at this article, I noticed that the hush puppy link in the "Fourth of July Food" section redirects to a shoe company instead of the food. Can't do anything about it myself, though, since I don't have a clue as to what hush puppies are, due to those being a Southern food and myself being way too Western... ;v;

1700 (talk) 04:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Yep, I saw it too.  Done. BappleBusiness (talk) 03:07, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! 1700 (talk) 06:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

What to the Slave is the 4th of July?

On June 18th, 2020, I visited this page for the first time, and was surprised and disappointed to see no mention of Thomas Jefferson's denunciation of slavery in the original s:Draft of the Declaration of Independence. Also disappointed not to see any mention of Frederick Douglass's speech What to the Slave is the Fourth of July? in which he praises the Declaration of Independence (U.S.) while faulting subsequent generations for betraying the principles expressed therein. So I added paragraphs referencing this. I returned a few days later, pleasantly surprised to see that my edits had survived that far. Looking at the history, I realize that TenorTwelve and probably other editors have added Frederick Douglass in the past, only to have their edits reverted. I wasn't the first editor to add this. I also restored another contribution of TenorTwelve - See also: Juneteenth black independence day. There is no reason to remove this content unless it is to promote general ignorance, and whitewashing of history. Please watch this page in future years to see that POV driven editors do not remove this aspect of history.Jaredscribe (talk) 01:07, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Please establish a consensus before adding substantial WP:UNDUE information. Thanks, Anon0098 (talk) 00:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Is Juneteenth required?

I totally respect the spirit of Juneteenth. However, considering the fact that there are several other venerable holidays in the United States, is it necessary to keep Juneteenth as a related link? The Unique One v2.0 (talk) 17:36, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

good point, I'll link to the general US federal holiday page instead Anon0098 (talk) 04:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Spelling?

Did Mr. Jefferson spell 'its' incorrectly? As written it would read, 'it is'. Or was that grammar rule different in 1776?

First and foremost, there is no source there. The one that i am looking at that appears to be reliable to me has "he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty". Notably, it has ampersands each time for "and" and the highlighting is different :

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/declara/ruffdrft.html Axxxion (talk) 15:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Now i see the quote was borrowed from here, which obviously contains quite a few inaccuracies and errors. I have corrected the quote as per the source I have found that appears most reliable.Axxxion (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Slavery blockquote

Why is this relevant? It seems like it's just thrown in the middle of the article Anon0098 (talk) 19:11, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 5 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) NOT MOVED - Snow close. Clear consensus against this move. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:22, 7 July 2021 (UTC) User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:22, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Independence Day (United States) → Independence Day – I first tried submitting the WP:RFD at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 4#Independence Day, but it got a procedural close, with the closing admin suggesting the WP:RM. This has now brought me here. Neel.arunabh (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Strong oppose - There are plenty of other countries with their own independence days. What evidence is there that the US's Independence Day is the primary topic? Interstellarity (talk) 01:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose - While arguably one of the more significant Independence Days in history, the argument that it's the most significant one would be a long argument indeed. Within the US, "Fourth of July" is much more common, but that has more to do with the celebration of the event. It's probably less recognizable outside of Anglo North America, however. BilCat (talk) 01:40, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose the US isn't the only country—blindlynx (talk) 02:24, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
While that is true, the Independence Day of United states has a long-term significance as it started in 1776. Celebrations of other countries started afterwards. For example, Mexico's Independence Day started in 1810. Neel.arunabh (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose The disambiguating epithet of "(United States)" is necessary to distinguish the subject from the just as relevant independence days of other nations, as well as from the film Independence Day. The significance of America's independence day celebrating the first European colonial entity to break from its mother country in modern history does not mean it is indistinguishably the only subject related to the phrase "Independence Day", which it would need to be for the page to be moved to that title. —FORMALDUDE (talk) 02:27, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I know that, but the Independence Day of the United States is the most significant. Neel.arunabh (talk) 22:05, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
It is hard to determine which the Independence day of the country is most significant because more than 100 countries celebrate the Independence Day in their respective dates, which they "claimed" as "most significant" than any other. 36.77.95.67 (talk) 01:39, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose – There's not even a rationale here for why it should be moved, but it seems like a clear Americentrism. —El Millo (talk) 03:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose There are more than 100 countries that have an Independence Day as the public holiday, and the US is not only country that having an Independence Day. Suggesting WP:SNOW close for it. 36.77.95.67 (talk) 03:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
Agree with a WP:SNOW close. —FORMALDUDE (talk) 03:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
Yup!—blindlynx (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I know there are other countries. But the Independence Day of United States is the most significant. Neel.arunabh (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose Merely being the "most significant" does not seem enough, especially since that seems extremely hard to determine. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:08, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2022 (2)

Setaylor831 (talk) 15:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Peaceray (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Change "py passing the Lee Resolution" to "by passing the Lee Resolution "

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2022

paragraph 2 has a spelling error in:

"py" passing the lee amendment

should be corrected to "by" Brianthunders (talk) 16:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Peaceray (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
  1. ^ https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot
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