Talk:Inaros II

Problems with the article - inconsistencies, lack of citations

There are quite a few problems with this article. For instance, the lead says he was defeated and executed in 454, but later on we are told he was not executed for 5 years. There are other similar problems, which are probably because this is an unintentional conflation of Thucydides, Ctesias (and in this case, a failure to check Ctesias, who does not say Inarus was crucified but says he was impaled), and Herodotus, all of who have slightly different stories, different names for participants, etc. It'll take a while to sort it. We need specific references for each bit, with an explanation of where the historical sources differ--Doug Weller (talk) 15:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I fond some evidence, that implies that Inarus was crucified:

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28]

I have pointed out that the livius.org article may say crucified, but the translation of Ctesias on that site says impaled. What you haven't discovered it seems is that different translations of Thucydides say different things, so that needs to be checked. In a case like this, you should always go to the original sources and see what they say. Doug Weller (talk) 05:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

And it appears that the Jowett and Crowley translations of Thucydides differ, with Crowley saying crucified, Jowett impaled.

Your choice of references interests and worries me. One of them, [29] is to a book "on the ancient Sun Kingdoms of Egypt and India and their voyages into Indonesia and the Pacific circa 1500" published by [[David Hatcher Childress]'s Adventures Unlimited company. [30] is at least not fringe, but is still not a reliable source. You don't seem to know what is or what is not a good source.

There are clearly differences between different translations, Jowett says impaled.

What is worse, is that you have twice inserted text into a quote which is not in the original, you moved my reference and added a reference which doesn't quote Photius's fragement of Ctesias at all but use it so anyone would think it did. This is just not honest. You also continue to add your personal opinions of what is interesting, and that is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.--Doug Weller (talk) 20:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

References

I note that a reference to a 19th century book as been added. This says Inarus was nailed to a cross, but gives no sources. That's not good enough, we have to base such claims on the original sources. Now that isn't easy and there is debate about the translations, but we can report those debates. What we shouldn't do is ignore those debates and just pick up something that makes a claim like this one, about a cross, for which there seems to be no classical source.--Doug Weller (talk) 09:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

We can encounter a BIG problem here, because ancient scolars did used the word crucifixion to describe long, painful deaths; caused either by impaling or nailing to a cross or tree. So we will probably never know the real truth! WHAT IS CERTAN IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSING INFORMATION. The first time I heard about Inaros was in a document that sade just this about his execution - he was taken and crucified.Egyptzo (talk) 09:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ancient scholars did not use the word crucifixion, that is an English word meaning to be nailed or bound to a cross. It does not mean impalement, I'm not sure why you think it does. The issue is about the best translation of the words (at least 2) used in relation to Inarus in Classical sources, ie in Latin or Greek, certainly not in English.--Doug Weller (talk) 09:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Romans were writing about Egyptians and Carthaginians crucifying people. Since both cultures did not use the cross, but a stake, it is known that in this case it was ment impaling. I am quite familiar with this, but if you do not believe me or want more details see Wikipedia pages impalement and crucifixion. I ment crucis esse in latin my refer to geting impaled. Egyptzo (talk) 10:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source in Wikipedia terms, but it agrees that crucifixion involves a cross. You seem to be moving towards accepting that it was impalement that was involved, not being nailed or bound to a cross.--Doug Weller (talk) 11:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I am just saying that it my be both, and that we will probably never know the real truth.Egyptzo (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Crucifixion or impalement

Here is what I have been told: Ctesias uses the verb anastaurizô, whilst Thucydides, Herodotus and Plato (Gorgias, 473 c 4-5) have anastauroô, both verbs (from stauros, "pole") meaning "bound with an idea of height", viz. in the Classical period "impale". See M. Halm-Tisserand, Réalités et imaginaire des supplices en Grèce ancienne (Paris, Belles Lettres, 1998), 13-15 Anastaurizô / anastauroô means "to be put upwards (ana) on a stauros", be it to hang or to die (as is the case with Inaros), so, strictly speaking, in each case where the verb is found we are left to guess whether we are dealing with impalement or what we call crucifiction. Impalement per se, either specified by the verb pêgnumi, "to fix", in Aeschylus, Eumenides, 189-190 kai muzousin oiktismon polun / hupo rhakhin pagentes, "and where one moans with long and piteous cries under the stick (driven) through the spine", cf. A. H. Sommerstein, Aeschylus Eumenides ("Greek and Latin Classics", Cambridge, C.U.P., 1989) p. 115 . by the Wortbildung (the semantically cruel compound anaskhinduleuô in Plato, Republic, II, 362 a 1 is based on skhindulêsis, "the cleaving into pieces", and its composition mirrors anaskhizô, "to rip up", "to open up") ; or by the lexique (Euripides, Iphigeneia in Tauris, 1430, and Electra, 898, uses skolopismos, "impalement", from skolops, "anyting pointed", especially "barb, pale, stake" ; the unknown author of the Rhesos, 514-515, has rhakhin stêsô, "by the neck I will stick him up" (on the city gates)), never was a part of the Greek criminal law ; to die on a pole driven through the body was seen in the Classical texts as so extreme a torture that it can only befit Barbarians or unworthy Hellenes (Herodotus IX 79). --Doug Weller (talk) 15:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved by nominator on 2 November. DrKiernan (talk) 18:12, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

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• Inaros → Inaros II

– This is a matter of disambiguation. There were two Egyptian princes named Inaros. The page for Inaros I is designated 'Inaros I' while that of 'Inaros II' is simply 'Inaros' which needs correction. AncPapyri (talk) 21:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Inarus and possible Greek generals as prisonners, seized by Artaxerxes I.jpg
• Inarus portrait.jpg
• Inarus, killed by Artaxerxes I.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:00, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Inarus and possible Greek generals as prisonners, seized by Artaxerxes I.jpg
• Inarus portrait.jpg
• Inarus, killed by Artaxerxes I.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)