Talk:Idris bin Abdullah al-Senussi

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Pretender[edit]

The original edit of this article has, I suspect, either been written by Idris himself or by someone in his pay to further his false claims to the headship of the Libyan Royal House of Senussi. This is a very serious matter because these claims have been proven to be utterly false in court in the UK. He deliberately mislead the British Parliament and when uncovered he quickly left the country. His claims to being a prince and leading the Senussi House have been publicly and totally refuted by genealogical experts (Debrett's) and the real head of the royal house, Crown Prince Muhammed as-Senussi. The fact that the 1995 scandal that featured on the front page of the Sunday Times was not even mentioned in this article together with opportunistic statements about the current crisis (as of February 2011) in Libya leads me to suspect that this article is a deliberate attempt to continue a deception and potentially, fraud.

I have edited this article to better reflect the truth, but on balance I believe this whole wiki should be deleted and the original creators investigated.Aetheling1125 (talk) 23:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What total nonsense, I sure ‘Idris himself’ or ‘someone in his employ’ could have written a written a far better article than me! and I doubt it would have only stated he was “a claimant” (which is a undeniable fact) but something like Head of the Royal House and heir to the Libyan throne and with no mention of Muhammed as-Senussi. I made this article due to the fact he is a claimant. There are competing claims in some former ruling families, one has to be careful to present a NPOV in such cases. - dwc lr (talk) 00:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but would you examine the facts. In 1969, King Idris of Libya was deposed by Col. Gadaffi. FACT. His son, the Crown Prince, was in Libya, and remained there under arrest with his family (including his eldest son Muhammed) until 1988 when they left for London. FACT. In 1992 the Crown Prince died and named his son, Muhammed, as his heir. FACT. This was recognised by the Libyan Constitutional Union (http://www.lcu-libya.co.uk/elcusty2.htm) which are based in London and of which Muhammed plays an important part. This other guy, Idris, is MUCH more distantly related to all the key players in the Libyan royal dynast and could not possibly claim to have a claim on the throne. Further to that, there is the whole Sunday Times article saying he was living in "make believe" and various REAL mp's claiming they had been duped. I could claim to be heir to the throne of England but would that warrant an article? The people who wrote the original in the Sunday Times revealing this fraud are REAL journalists (http://journalisted.com/maurice-chittenden) Aetheling1125 (talk) 00:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And read this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.libyanconstitutionalunion.net/Gu2ndApril1992.htm note the article in The Guardian Aetheling1125 (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the Crown Prince was the nephew of King Idris. And also the LCU is not very supportive of Prince Mohammed http://www.libyanconstitutionalunion.net/transAAAintrvw.htm. Regardless of the rights of wrongs of his claims in my opinion he is notable person/pretender. - dwc lr (talk) 00:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I accept your point about Hassan being the nephew and not the son of King Idris. But the LCU does acknowledge that Hassan was the legitimate Crown Prince and that he did designate his son Muhammed as his successor in his will. They do say that a referendum would have to be held. They do not mention Prince Idris at all, who is after all, only the the second son of the sixth son of the second son of the younger brother of King Idris's father. As it stands I am reasonably happy with the way the article is at the moment because it mentions that Idris was found to have "duped" people with his claims to be the "Heir Presumptive to the Libyan throne" which was factually clearly untrue. Aetheling1125 (talk) 01:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I don’t have a problem with the article either. But an IP is taking their POV too far. - dwc lr (talk) 01:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No idea what you mean by "IP" - internet address? - also, can we have the article renamed simply " Idris al-Senussi " and drop the "Prince" bit. The other articles for the [actual] royalty in Libya are simply using their names.Aetheling1125 (talk) 08:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is he is commonly known as Prince Idris al-Senussi. The other articles should be moved in my opinion, I think Hasan as-Senussi should be at Hasan as-Senussi, Crown Prince of Libya. - dwc lr (talk) 13:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship to King Idris[edit]

In the article it refers to the claimant Idris al-Senussi as being 'the second son of the sixth son of the second son of the younger brother of King Idris's father'. Does this make Idris Al-Senussi a 'first cousin twice removed' as stated in the box? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Culture759 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well Prince Idris's father married the neice of King Idris, but she was not his mother. So I suppose Prince Idris is a step great nephew of King Idris. While Prince Idris's great-great grandfather the 1st Grand Senussi was King Idris’s grandfather so they are also first cousins twice removed. - dwc lr (talk) 17:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone through the website Royal Ark which is generally understood to be a highly reliable source. This is a summary of the patrilinear genealogy of the two rival claimants; Idris and Muhammed;
LINEAGE OF IDRIS
Muhammad bin 'Ali al-Sanussi al-Khattabi al-Mujahiri al-Idrisi al-Hasani, 1st Grand Sanussi. (Born 1787, died 1859).
3rd Son of above:
Muhammad as-Sharif bin Sayyid Muhammad al-Sanussi (Born 1846, died 1896)
2nd Son of above:
Muhammad al-'Abid Pasha bin Sayyid Muhammad as-Sharif al-Sanussi (Born 1881, died 1938)
10th Son of above:
Abdu'llah bin Sayyid Muhammad al-'Abid al-Sanussi (Born 1919, extant?) Deprived of titles and styles by King Idris of Libya, 1954. Involved in an attempted military uprising against Gaddafi in 1970.
3rd Son of above:
Idris bin Sayyid Abdu'llah al-Sanussi (Born 1957, extant). Claimant to leadership of family since 1989 and has “assumed” titles and styles on behalf of his family despite those titles being legally removed (as per the pre-1969 Libyan Constitution) by King Idris from his father and his father's descendants.
LINEAGE OF MUHAMMED
Muhammad bin 'Ali al-Sanussi al-Khattabi al-Mujahiri al-Idrisi al-Hasani, 1st Grand Sanussi. (Born 1787, died 1859) (same as above)
2nd Son of above:
Muhammad al-Mahdi bin Sayyid Muhammad al-Sanussi, 2nd Grand Sanussi (Born 1844, died 1902)
7th Son of above:
Muhammad al-Rida al-Senussi (Born 1890, died 1955) Appointed Crown Prince by his older brother King Idris in 1953, died 1955. NB.All his older siblings save his elder brother, the King, were dead by 1953.
5th Son of above:
Hasan al-Rida al-Mahdi al-Sanussi (Born 1928, died 1992) Appointed Crown Prince by his uncle King Idris in 1956 and ratified by Libyan Assembly, became Regent of Libya in 1969. Deposed by Gadaffi later in 1969. Succeeded as head of Royal House on the death of his uncle, King Idris, in 1983. Died in London, 1992.
2nd Son of above:
Muhammad al-Rida bin Sayyid Hasan al-Rida al-Mahdi al-Senoussi (Born 1962, extant). Appointed as the heir and successor of his father in his father’s Will, 1992, a situation accepted by the Libyan Constitutional Union.
With relation to royal claims made by the two individuals, Muhammed is the legally recognised heir of his father who was the constitutionally approved Crown Prince of Libya. His grandfather was the previous lawful Crown Prince, his great-grandfather was the 2nd Grand Senussi and his great-great grandfather was the 1st Grand Senussi. As for Idris, on the other hand, he is the younger son of a disinherited minor prince. His only claim to the throne would be that he is the great-great grandson of the 1st Grand Senussi, and nothing more apart from his fathers relationship with the CIA. With relation to the quote from Debrett's ("the second son of the sixth son of the second son of the younger brother of King Idris's father") regarding Idris's ancestry it would appear they were over generous, because according to Royal Ark, Prince Idris would appear to be the third son of the tenth son of the second son of the younger brother of King Idris's father, and worse than that, his father was disinherited by the King so he can claim no title - not even Sayyid - under the royal constitution. See more here: Royal Ark, Libya Aetheling1125 (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In 1954 King Idris deprived all members of the Senussi royal Family of their rights and privileges. But in exile the King was apparently reconciled with Prince Idris’s father (if indeed their was an estrangement) and tasked him “restoring legitimacy” in Libya and so his father plotted to overthrow Gaddafi. Then when his father died in 1988 according to (Greg Copley) he was chosen by some members of the Senussi family as heir and has continued the struggle against Gaddafi. For what its worth Burkes Royal Families of the World Volume 2 says the Crown Prince was expelled from the royal family on recognising the republic. (but they included the fake ‘King Rachid of the Tunisians’ as Libya and Tunisa claimant so I don’t know how reliable that is). I don’t think it’s right to say the appointment of Prince Mohemed as-Senussi is a situation accepted by the Libyan Constitutional Union, the head of the union has said “we hold reservations on the contents of the Will regarding the inheritance by Prince Mohamed Sanussi of the position of Crown Prince.” - dwc lr (talk) 19:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding that last point about the LCU. My reading of it is that the LCU would make any proposal for a restored royal regime a matter for the Libyan people to decide. They did recognise the former Crown Prince Hassan as legitimately the Crown Prince so it would logically follow, under a restored monarchy, that one of his sons would succeed him. The only person who recognizes the claim made by "Prince" Idris is Prince Idris and the evidence suggests that he has not been forthright with many people along the way allowing them - as was the case in the UK Parliament in 1990 - to believe he was the great nephew of the former King... something which was totally untrue. Aetheling1125 (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Prince Mohammed has the strongest claim to the thorne. Idirs is not completely without supporters though as the International Strategic Studies Association does back him as the claimant. And to be fair the claim to be a great nephew of King Idris is not really untrue as his stepmother was a niece of King Idris so he is a (step-)great nephew. - dwc lr (talk) 21:47, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Separate to this whole discussion I thought you'd be interested, at least, to see this: [1] Aetheling1125 (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, yeah I saw a Bloomberg article on this and posted it to the 2011 Libyan uprising#Royalty article. Its nice to see him release a statement. - dwc lr (talk) 01:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

sort[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}} Please add {{DEFAULTSORT:Senussi, Idris}}

65.93.15.125 (talk) 13:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How can Idris lay claim to a throne which he says should not exist?[edit]

Did you not listen to the part of the interview where Idris said that the new Libyan constitution should not have a monarchy? If this is what he wants, then how can you say he lays claim to a throne which he says should not exist? This seems to me to be a radical repositioning by Idris. Only weeks ago in interviews he seemed to be hinting that he might want to be king. Now he's saying that there should be no Libyan king. Note, I kept mention in the article of Idris' royal family membership, but you inserted into the article that Idris' claim to the throne of Libya is current. Could you please explain to me how you justify this seeming contradiction? Scott P. (talk) 23:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I listened to the interview but I didn’t interpret what he says as a renunciation of his claim, all he said was the “part of the monarch will be taken out” which may be the position of the Libyan Transitional Council. Its very unlikely the monarchy would get resorted straight away, this may happen later. It’s also very rare to get heirs to a throne to openly call for the restoration of the monarchies. For example Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia has said "I do not see any reason for the political system in Germany to be changed. And I am very happy - probably happier than many of my forebears.". This doesn’t mean he is still not heir, or a claimant to throne in case the monarchy is restored. - dwc lr (talk) 23:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworked the intro to the Idris article in an attempt to show both your point of view and mine. Idris' statement that the constitution should be rewritten without a monarchy seems to me to be noteworthy. I haven't seen him state anything so succinctly on this point before. It's my guess that Idris may have realized that should the monarchists ever get the upper hand in post-Gaddafi Libya, that it would be quite unlikely that he would ever be chosen over Mohammed El Senussi for the role, thus he may now be attempting to gracefully back out of his rival claim. Scott P. (talk) 00:31, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to include direct quotes from the interview. It is not clear he has renounced, he says the people will elect a head of state "who can be president, or whatever they want to call him" which technically could be king. He says he supports the Libyan Transitional Council[2] who as far as I know do not advocate the restoration of the monarchy, indeed they use the term Libyan Republic. - dwc lr (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. Scott P. (talk) 00:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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