Talk:Idiopathic chronic fatigue

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Reliable WP:MEDRS needed[edit]

2020 discussion

In what universe is the second citation acceptable? -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 07:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's a systematic review in a peer reviewed journal published by Elsevier. Clearly meets WP:MEDRS. It's been used to support the CDC information, which it cites. Amousey (talk) 13:36, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That was the one I was referring to, yes. A better example of a ref that doesn't meet WP:MEDRS would be difficult to find. I shall be removing anything that relies on it in the near future. -Roxy the elfin dog. wooF 13:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you re-read WP:MEDRS which states: "A secondary source in medicine summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources, usually to provide an overview of current understanding of the topic, to make recommendations, or to combine results of several studies. Examples include literature reviews or systematic reviews found in medical journals, specialist academic or professional books, and medical guidelines or position statements published by major health organizations." Amousey (talk) 13:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Familiar old text, yes. Unreliable in universe source. The clue is in the title of the "review" and the affiliations of the authors. The review is also off-topic for this article, as it is about, yes, CFS not Idiopathic chronic fatigue. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 13:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Review is not off topic and is about ICF only, referring to Fukuda 1994 with its flowchart used to distinguish between ICF and CFS. Both have different criteria stated in this same document. Affiliations of authors have little relevance to WP:MEDRS. Suggest you check review findings of this review that I just added. With most illnesses where there is no approved drug you tend to find a lot of interest in alternative treatments - and many low quality trials of alternative remedies, hence reason for inclusion. Amousey (talk) 14:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No way is that complying with medrs. we'll have to get more comments here. Will you go to project MED or shall I. I see you are familiar with the place! -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 14:35, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
From the conclusion of that awful review - "Even though our summary effects estimate suggests a potential benefit of herbal medicines for managing fatigue symptoms in chronic fatigue syndrome, the evidence needs to be updated by rigorous clinical trials with detailed reporting of adverse events in the future." Emphasis mine. Please remove it. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 14:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguishing for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)[edit]

Sources:

1. CDC ICD-10-CM update introduces new code (subcode) referencing ME/CFS only, this is the US specific version. Past US only issue resolved.[1]

2. CDC ME/CFS criteria since 2019 require 3 compulsory symptoms plus 1 of 2 optional symptoms[2]

1. Impairment associated with fatigue. :2. Post-exertional malaise
3. Sleep dysfunction
4. either orthostatic intolerance OR cognitive dysfunction OR both optional symptoms

3. Diagnostic criteria difference 3a- Acupuncture for chronic fatigue syndrome and idiopathic chronic fatigue: a multicenter, nonblinded, randomized controlled trial][3]

Extended content
Fatigue that continues for more than 6 months is defined as chronic fatigue, and chronic fatigue for which no medical explanation exists is classified as chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) or idiopathic chronic fatigue (ICF). The diagnostic criteria for CFS are as follows: (1) the individual has severe chronic fatigue for 6 or more consecutive months that is not due to ongoing exertion or other medical conditions associated with fatigue; (2) the fatigue significantly interferes with daily activities and work; and (3) the individual concurrently has four or more of eight specific symptoms. These symptoms include the following: (i) postexertional malaise lasting for more than 24 h; (ii) unrefreshing sleep; (iii) significant impairment of short-term memory or concentration; (iv) muscle pain; (v) multijoint pain without swelling or redness; (vi) headaches of a new type, pattern, or severity; (vii) tender cervical or axillary lymph nodes; and (viii) a sore throat that is frequent or recurring. Information about CFS can be found at http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/case-definition/index.html. Cases that cannot be categorized according to the above diagnostic criteria are included under ICF.

3b.Diagnostic criteria differences pre-1994 (CDC Fukuda)- CDC Fukuda criteria 1994.[4] Major Classification Categories: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Idiopathic Chronic Fatigue (Fukuda K, Straus SE, Hickie I, Sharpe MC, Dobbins JG, Komaroff A. The chronic fatigue syndrome: a comprehensive approach to its definition and study. International Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Study Group. Ann Intern Med. 1994;121:953–9)

Clinically evaluated, unexplained cases of chronic fatigue can be separated into either the chronic fatigue syndrome or idiopathic chronic fatigue on the basis of the following criteria.

Extended content
the concurrent occurrence of four or more of the following symptoms. all of which must have persisted or recurred during 6 or more consecutive months of illness and must not have predated the fatigue; self-reptwted impairment in short-term memory or conceniradon severe enough to cause substantial reduction in previous levels of occupational, educational. social, or personal activities: sore throat; tender cervical or axillary tymph nodes; muscle pain, multijoint pain without joint swelling or rednc&s: headaches of a new type. pattern, or severity; unrefreshing sleep; and post-exertional malaise lasting more than 24 hours.

3c. Cochrane. Traditional Chinese medicinal herbs for the treatment of participants diagnosed with idiopathic chronic fatigue or chronic fatigue syndrome.[5]

4. Exercise differences: After completing questionnaires on symptoms, zygosity, physical health, and a psychiatric interview, twins were classified using three increasingly stringent definitions: 1) chronic fatigue for ≥6 months, 2) chronic fatigue not explained by exclusionary medical conditions, and 3) idiopathic chronic fatigue not explained by medical or psychiatric exclusionary criteria of the chronic fatigue syndrome case definition.[6]

Medical differences on exercise tests: Fig 2 Fig 4

5. Prevalence 10:1 plus biomedical difference from Nature[7] ICF is defined as clinically sustained fatigue with no known underlying pathologies, and it does not meet the criteria of CFS(10). ICF generally has a prevalence that is 10 times higher than that of CFS in the general population(11,12.)

Our results showed an alteration in only TNF-α, but not in IFN-γ, which may distinguish ICF from CFS.

6. Symptoms differences A Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) severity score based on case designation criteria[8][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560481/ See symptoms chart]

7. PMC 2522773 Differential diagnosis between “chronic fatigue” and “chronic fatigue syndrome” [9]

On the other hand, to distinguish CFS from chronic fatigue or ICF is very important in clinical practice. The reason is that although patients present fatigue symptom as their main complaint in subjects suffering from chronic fatigue or CFS, CFS is considered as to being in totally different pathologic illness.3 - Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2023 (UTC) - Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/diagnosis/icd-10.html
  2. ^ https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/diagnosis/iom-2015-diagnostic-criteria.html
  3. ^ https://trialsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13063-015-0857-0
  4. ^ https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/abs/10.7326/0003-4819-121-12-199412150-00009
  5. ^ https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006348.pub2/full
  6. ^ https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/9/6/682
  7. ^ https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-31270-3
  8. ^ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560481/
  9. ^ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2522773/

Orphaned references in Idiopathic chronic fatigue[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Idiopathic chronic fatigue's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ICD11":

  • From Chronic fatigue syndrome: "ICD-11 – Mortality and Morbidity Statistics". icd.who.int. Archived from the original on 1 August 2018. Retrieved 20 May 2020. Diseases of the nervous system
  • From Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease: "ICD-11 - ICD-11 for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics". icd.who.int. Retrieved 30 June 2021.
  • From Fatigue: "ICD-11 for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics". icd.who.int.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 23:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MG22 is correct (last link). Will sort on page. [Fatigue] - Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 00:12, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Age at onset, prevalence, risk factors[edit]

These were cited to Schauz's chapter but appeared to vary so much because they combined CFS and ICF together (gender, age, prevalence all did this). They were not in the book chapter when I looked, so I have added new sources - Wessely, and an exercise study - both around 4-5%. Fukuda 1994 did not give prevalence, and many of the other studies that were large were community ones "ICD-like" or "CF-like lasting 1+ year) where diagnosis was not confirmed and no exclusionary lab tests were run. Multiple sources conflicted over gender so I thought it best to leave out eg Buchwald states mo gender differences. There is some evidence of higher ICF rates in certain ethnic minorities but very few sources. I wondered what otherz thought about adding it. - Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Someone Trying to Delete this Article[edit]

@Amousey Thanks for editing. Pls go to the “Article for deletion” page below and comment. No idea why someone wants to delete. Do you know how to find out who put it up for deletion? Thanks again. Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Idiopathic chronic fatigue JustinReilly (talk) 10:26, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I have now added most references to the page. The deletion still allows it to be improved, which I was doing to address issues raised (I commented as well). The deletion notice is at the top of the page, here in case you didn't see it. The deletion request should be at the top there. JzG I think. I can't see the relisted discussion linked to here. - Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 20:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"It is not to be confused with medically explained Chronic Fatigue" at top[edit]

Isn't this the basic description of "Idiopathic chronic fatigue"? Ward20 (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind. I was subconsciously reading "unexplained" there. Ward20 (talk) 22:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No worries User:Ward20 - Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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