Talk:ISSF 10 meter air rifle

Note about gender and results

Women generally perform at the same level as men, if not better.

What's the reason for removing this? It's a quite special thing about this event throughout the world of sport (not even other shooting sports come close to this). And it's certainly verifiable. Just look at the world record table or the table at [1] (although it hasn't been updated in a while). The statement could probably be worded better, though. -- Jao 09:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Taking fewer shots makes it easier to attain a max. If you want the comment, you need stats next to it. EamonnPKeane (talk) 00:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The final match results of men and woman would be somewhat usable (10 consecutive shots up to a 10.9 score) from a comparable circumstances viewpoint. However the inherent accuracy potential of the employed system (rifles, sighting components, pellets) has to be taken in account, since ideal technical systems do not exist, except in theory. This will always give room to debate, since the employed systems tend to get improved over time by the sports arms industry. The Statistical notes on rifle group patterns by Robert E. Wheeler is an interesting article regarding shot groups.--Francis Flinch (talk) 07:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It should probably be noted that women almost always outperform men in standing shooting for physiological reasons -- the female pelvis flares more than the male pelvis, and women are almost always shorter than men; this allowing women an advantage in that they can rest their supporting elbow on their hipbone which men can not do. As a result, their position is more stable and their performance better, as shown by the higher number of possibles scored by women (15) than men (4). MarkDennehy (talk) 13:20, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Please read Statistical notes on rifle group patterns by Robert E. Wheeler regarding shot groups carefully. Mr. Wheeler explains that it gets harder to consistently score 10s when more shots are fired. Tables are included showing the statistical effects for 40, 50 and 100 shot groups. Mr. Wheeler statistical paper demonstrates that it is harder to score 100x10=1,000 than 60x10=600. Scoring 40x10=400 is easier than scoring 60x10=600. Since male (60 shots) and female (40 shots) shooters have differing qualification phases, statistics dictates that qualification results are mathematically not comparable. When your sample sizes (= number of shots) are not equal you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Only final match 10-shot groups can be mathematically compared between genders, but this might be a starting point for equipment related debate.--Francis Flinch (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

It's an excellent paper, but reading it, three things struck me:

• he was writing about fullbore rifle shooting (hence his commentary on handloading ammunition in section 3) which uses completely different physical principles (burning propellant powder versus precompressed air - the latter being far, far more consistent from shot to shot for obvious physical reasons);
• he was speaking of shots fired from a benchrest position (this isn't obvious from his paper, but is from its citation contexts, such as in Statistical Methods for Determining Optimal Rifle Cartridge Dimensions by Anderson and Grevstat) - thus the physiological principles I mentioned above (the differences between male and female skeletal structures) were not a factor in his research;
• his paper indicates that the decrease in probability of shooting a possible score as the number of shots increases is linear in fashion; whereas the difference between the number of possibles shot by male and female shooters is emphatically not linear, with women shooting over three times as many as men. At that rate, it would be physically impossible for anyone to shoot a perfect score if they shot an 80-shot match; but such feats are seen in training. Thus other factors are in play here; and the physiological ones I mentioned have been well-known in the shooting community as basic biomechanical principles for several decades now and are a standard part of the taught body of knowledge contained in the ISSF coaching courses, standard textbooks such as Ways of the Rifle, Air Rifle Shooting and so forth.

Based on these, I suggest that you are accidentally misinterpreting Mr.Wheeler's research, though it's a very understandable error. MarkDennehy (talk) 13:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. You can write about biomechanical and physiological (dis)advantages of genders in ISSF shooting articles. Please do provide some references to books and (other) sources like you mentioned that prove that point, but also mention the principle that firing more shots from a machine rest like in batch testing will statistically produce bigger groups than firing less shots. Guns and projectiles of any type are (hopefully precision) engineered workpieces systems, that like any other product can not be made to function perfectly consistent. That will explain to laymen why larger shot series will unfortunately yield larger groups (and maybe why small sample sizes do indicate less about realistic practical performance expectations). You could also try to inform readers about the (positive) effects of specialized clothing used in ISSF shooting as long as it can be referenced. I suspect that shooting barefoot wearing a wide t shirt an baggy jeans instead of wearing proper ISSF conform shooting gear will not be helpful in achieving ISSF world records. --Francis Flinch (talk) 17:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

details?

This article gives absolutely no details about the gun used, or the ammunition used.

Neither does it explain what the "10 m" part refers to. One might guess it means "10 metres". But should readers really have to guess?

Cheers! -- Geo Swan 08:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right, it isn't that clear to someone not familiar with the sport. I have changed and hopefully improved it. --Deon Steyn 09:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

National records

While it's true that generally many national records in ISSF events are higher than the world records, I wonder what the source is for it being the case in 10 m Air Rifle. As higher than 600 or 400 is impossible, this must mean 600 by a junior, higher final records or higher team records. A citation would be nice here. -- Jao 08:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Good solution, Francis. By the way, love what you're doing with the article. Most ISSF shooting events articles are still very stubby, but this one is really starting to stand out. -- Jao 13:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Look at Sportstar for some (world) records information. 10-shot final match results seem to have passed the 105 mark. A perfect 109 final score (10 x 10.9) is hard to achieve in reality though, since a typical 10-shot group for a good PCP match air rifle/match pellets combo is ≈ 5 to 5.5 mm Ø. A consistent accuracy with appropriate ammunition of 0.17 to 0.34 MOA (1 MOA = 2.90888208665722 mm at 10 m) can be regarded as excellent for any type of rifle. Francis Flinch 10:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ø

What does this symbol (i.e., Ø) mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.5.88 (talk) 17:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Diameter of a circle.--Francis Flinch (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.nealjguns.com/pdfcatalog/Tgtammo.pdf
  • In 10 metre air pistol on 2011-05-23 02:08:12, 404 NOT FOUND
  • In 10 metre air pistol on 2011-06-01 01:37:24, 404 NOT FOUND

--JeffGBot (talk) 01:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Olympics?

I see the World Championships lists here, but another list for the Olympics should be added, right? I would prefer it if both lists were concatenated into a list article and separated from the main article. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Rests?`

Are these rifles fired from rests? I can't tell from the images whether they rest the guns on the stands between shots or do they shoot from them? 86.167.184.73 (talk) 15:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

10 m air rifle is shot from a standing position. You probably saw rests used by Olympic competitors to rest their rifles on between shots. There are also competitions organized for older and disabled participants were the rifles are fired from a rested position. Three positions competitions are also organized for youngsters. Such rested or three positions air rifle competitions are not covered by this article.--Francis Flinch (talk) 05:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Scoring

Here we are 12 years into this article, and there is still nothing about the method of scoring! We know that in the Olympics finals, there are 20 shots, each with a maximum value of 10.9 according to the article. But we know nothing about how these points are scored. Really, it is obvious that the closer you are to the center of the target the higher your score, but how is it scored? If a shot is 5 mm from the center is the score 10.4? or is it 10.8? Thanks Nick Beeson (talk) 00:35, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

WRs before 2013

Why aren't there records before 2013? It part of the information about the discipline. 213.149.51.100 (talk) 09:48, 5 May 2018 (UTC)