Talk:Home Nations/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Rugby Union

user:TippyGoomba are you seriously asking for a source to say that the Republic is not part of the United Kingdom? [1]

As for the other citation that you have requested is the fact not covered by the citations in the next paragraph?

-- PBS (talk) 22:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "despite not being" would need to be cited as it provides analysis. Similarly, "and is therefore" provides analysis.

For example, to give an alternative perspective (uncited), the phrase "home nations" refers to the "home" nations of the (no longer existing) British Empire. Whether all of Ireland (or any other of the "home nations") is today a part of the United Kingdom is irrelevant from that perspective. The term is historical in origin and today merely refers to the countries of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, which share a common history, culture and mutual affinity. --RA (talk) 22:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

In short: to say that Ireland is a "home nation" relies a perception of the country as having been a "home nation", rather than a possession, of the British Empire? This should be interesting... Brocach (talk) 23:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes. And the same can be said for all of the other home nations.

(Before you get excited, do remember that half of the British army during Imperial age were Irishmen. As is said: "the British Empire was won by the Irish, administered by the Scots and Welsh and the profits went to the English". We like to disassociate ourselves from the Empire. In reality, we, more often than not, were the ones doing the actual conquering. As you say, interesting...)

--RA (talk) 00:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

No I am not asking for a source to say that the Republic is not part of the United Kingdom. I am asking for a source for the statements of the sort Ireland is never/sometimes/etc referred to as a home nation. How do you expect me to verify this statement? Quote directly from the sources you think cover it. TippyGoomba (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I assume too much, but in the context of rugby (and speaking as someone who has no particular interest in the game) this persistence on the point – especially when I had cleared up some of the more interpretative language in the section that had attracted tags – seems close to asking for a source that water is wet or that association football is usually known as simply football in the UK. Try this, this, or this. As it is at best an semi-informal designation, I'm not sure anyone will find a formal declaration that the "Home Nations" officially consist of A, B, C and D, if that's what you're asking for. The text here seems to come close enough though. If you could confirm that these are enough to drop the tag, that would be great (rather than my just adding any or all of them in and your restoring the tag again). N-HH talk/edits 16:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I've added the following:

• Mathew Brown; Patrick Guthrie; Greg Growden (2010), Rugby for Dummies, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 9780470677087, Home Nations: England, Ireland, Scotland Wales [appears in glossary]

I also moved a citation that was in the wrong place around and updated a sentence. --RA (talk) 16:16, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

With the sometimes still removed and the reference added, all problems go away. Thanks everyone. TippyGoomba (talk) 03:09, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland as soccer "home nation"

A "citation needed" tag was added to the statement that, in association football, "the Republic of Ireland national football team... is not referred to as a Home Nation." This is hardly logical; a citation is not required for a statement worded in that way (the team is "not a banana", "not a duck", "not a rugby team"...). A citation would only be required for a claim that the Republic's team was referred to as a home nation. Brocach (talk) 16:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Good point. The statement adds nothing and appears to be WP:OR. It has been removed, just as a statement saying the team is "not a banana" should be. Daicaregos (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

It was a good point, but the point that the Republic is not referred to as a home nation is also a good one and needs to be made in that para. Brocach (talk) 22:36, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

This has been referred to the NOR Noticeboard. Daicaregos (talk) 07:10, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

There are three states, the team is a banana, the team is not a banana, the banana status of the team is undetermined. The first two require a citation, while the third should not be put into the article. In summery, a citation is required or the offending statement should be removed. TippyGoomba (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

All statements that appear in articles are required to be verifiable. It doesn't matter if the statement is phrased in the positive or the negative. In this case, the statement was incorrect and I've removed it. The Republic of Ireland soccer team is referred to as a "home nation". See for example last Thursday's Daily Mail: "The Republic of Ireland are the next highest of the home nations, moving up a place to 39th following qualifying draws against Austria and Sweden." --RA (talk) 23:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Verifiability of this sort of statement in the negative is automatically present: any assertion that "X is not usually referred to as Y" can be disproven by showing that it is usually referred to as Y in a suitable number of reliable sources. One citation from the British edition of the Daily Mail does not constitute reliable evidence that the Republic of Ireland, where a different edition circulates, is usually referred to as one of these "home nations". Brocach (talk) 23:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

"Verifiability of this sort of statement in the negative is automatically present: any assertion that 'X is not usually referred to as Y' can be disproven by showing that it is usually referred to as Y in a suitable number of reliable sources." - No, it's not. Conclusions like this, drawn from an original analysis of multiple sources, is simply OR. Any statement that appears in the encyclopaedia needs to be verifiable.

(There are some exceptions for trivial analysis, such as simple calculations, but not statements like you want to make here. Even small statements like this, if not verifiable, are a significant leap of OR. For example, using a scientific method, a sample of sources would need to be selected. Instances of the term in that sample would need to be quantified. Finally a statistical analysis of uses of the term, one way or the other, in the sample would be conducted [to ensure that conlusions were statistically significant]. Otherwise, you'd be talking through your hat.)

The Daily Mail article isn't a RS for any substantial statement that could be added to this article. However, it does show the danger of uncited statements like this. The statement in the article was "the Republic of Ireland is not referred to as a Home Nation." Yet in one Google I could pull a newspaper article from only last week referring to the Republic of Ireland as just that.

The addition here doesn't improve matters. If it cannot be sourced, leave it out. --RA (talk) 00:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Why is it necessary to list which territories are not home nations? Which can't the article just list the home nations and leave it at that?GordyB (talk) 07:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

It is necessary because the article has to define the term and note different senses in which it has been used. Brocach (talk) 10:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to Wikipedia:Verifiability. Please read it. Along with WP:NPOV and No original research, WP:V is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. WP:V is summarised: Readers must be able to check that Wikipedia articles are not just made up. This means that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The statement concerning the Republic of Ireland football team has been challenged. It must, therefore, be cited by a reliable source. If you disagree with the policy, you are welcome to change it on the policy page. Otherwise, please remove the statement until such time as a reliable source has been cited, at which point it may be re-introduced to the article. Daicaregos (talk) 14:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Usually there is little point adding information about what something is not, or when a term is not used, but here, when the page is about the term itself, it seems useful; especially when the point is the distinction between how the term is used in the context of rugby and of football. Is it really open to challenge that in the context of rugby, "Home Nations" usually refers to England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, while for football it means England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (and that the point hinges on the fact that the Ireland rugby team is all-island whereas the north and the Republic have separate football teams)? Of course you will find some examples where the terminology is used more loosely than that, eg with the Daily Mail as cited, but that doesn't override the general principle, which we can surely infer from the far greater number of sources that follow it – just Google "[four] home nations" plus rugby and then football – without requiring one that explicitly asserts the point (although that would of course be better). N-HH talk/edits 15:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

How are readers to know the statement is true? If it is notable, independent sources will have noted it, which should be cited. If it is not notable, independent sources will not have noted it, and it shouldn't appear in the article. Various newspapers (Independent, Grauniad, Daily Telegraph) describe the Republic of Ireland football team as one of the Home Nations, as does The FA. Daicaregos (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

We had an edit clash (main posting unidented below), but taking one example from you list, here is a different Indy article that contradicts the Indy article you found, as it calls NI an home nation while excluding the Republic. -- PBS (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The sentence under dispute was stating a well known fact, but like many well known facts of this type can be difficult to find a reliable source that state the obvious. In this case this piece of information is not needed by the majority of Irish or British citizens, but it is an important piece of information for those who do not follow the complications nomenclature within these islands and the article is the lesser for not including "the Republic of Ireland national football team... is not referred to as a Home Nation."

However we are bound to try to remain inside the self imposed policies and guidelines unless we go for IAR. There is another tack we can take that will allow us out of this predicament without using IAR, that is to add a short paragraph about membership of the British Home Championship, which can be used to explain that it was Northern Ireland and not the Republic that was referred to when talking about soccer and the home countries for most of the second half of the 20th century. It will be a paragraph rather than a sentence, but it will convey the same information. -- PBS (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

As I'm sure all the papers do, the Telegraph for example seems to swing both ways. I never doubted that you will find some examples where the Republic's team is included, but a Books search for example of "five home nations" versus "four home nations", or a single search for "home nations .. + Republic of Ireland", suggests the standard, most common assumption in serious sources is that when it comes to football there are four, with Northern Ireland included but the Republic not, such that it normally has to be added in a separate reference, eg "the Home Nations and the Republic". I wouldn't argue to hard over a phrasing that says the term "does not always" – as opposed to "does not usually" – include the Republic when it comes to football, but it does seem to be something that needs to be flagged up in some way. N-HH talk/edits 16:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, per the above discussion, and following PBS's suggestion about hanging it maybe on the old Home Championship, I've put in a possible alternative phrasing which hedges itself a bit and also has references showing at least an example of the contradictory uses, even if neither makes definitive or explicit statements about the relative preponderance of each. N-HH talk/edits 16:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I, personally, do not use Home Nations to describe the Republic of Ireland football team. But others do. I have both heard and read them. That is why I challenged the statement "the Republic of Ireland national football team... is not referred to as a Home Nation." That statement has now been amended, but still seems like OR, or possibly WP:SYNTH. Particularly “Other examples of usage in relation to soccer that excludes the Republic” and “although the term is occasionally used in the British media” Even the FAI have used the term. Do any of the references cited actually say The Republic's team is not usually referred to as a Home Nation? If not, the requirements of WP:V stand. Daicaregos (talk) 18:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Well I tried a slightly less definitive wording, with a link on to the British Home Championship, as suggested here, hoping it would lead to some discussion and or amendment/refinement; but, as your diff shows, it simply got totally rewritten to something much closer to the previous contested version, without so much as a talk page post. N-HH talk/edits 13:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I believe it's another one of those phrases which gets a bit vague when it comes to locking down an actual definition. We've had these discussions before (see above). To recap (and nothing new here) I believe everyone is clear that "Home Nations" was the term used before partition for the nations of the UKoGBaI. The Republic of Ireland is not a Home Nation from a political standpoint (cos it begs the question, what exactly does "Home" mean in that context) but since the vast majority of sport is organized on an all-Ireland basis, the term often is used in a sporting context. With no problems. Association football is one of the exceptions, and is organized according to the political boundaries.

In response to the comment that the FAI use the term - as stated above previously The FA still use the term, and searching their website turns it up a fair bit although they use it in the full glory of every possible meaning :-) Sometimes its the 4 home nations of the UK, others its the 4 historical home nations with Ireland the island being represented (Paralympics Soccer). But equally noticable is the complete lack of usage at the Wales FA website, the Northern Ireland FA website, and the Scottish FA website. And I also see (on the RoI FA website) that a competition for those with disabilities is known as either the "Four Nations" competition, or the "Home Nations" competition. And it appears that only RoI, NI, Sco and Eng participate. Kinda difficult to pick a standard definition across everywhere - looks to me like the definition is pretty flexible.

I thought the paragraph inserted by N-HH read pretty well and would support something very close to this. I don't believe that the RoI soccer team is included as a Home Nation in most cases (lots of refs for that) but sometimes is included (refs for that too). In the absence of a reference stating that it isn't used (or variants of that theme), we shouldn't make that statement here. --HighKing (talk) 14:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I still have no way of verifying the statements, they should be removed. TippyGoomba (talk) 15:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, can you clarify what statements you're referring to please? --HighKing (talk) 16:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I recently added {{citation needed}} tags to two statements. They relate to the fact that Ireland is never/sometimes/etc referred to as a "home nation". I need to WP:VERIFY that claim. TippyGoomba (talk) 03:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, by virtue of the examples of use cited currently on the page and here on the talk thread, we have verification for the fact that the term is employed alternately with both meanings. What we do not have verification for (and are unlikely to find it) is what is more "usual" or correct, or even "more common" (although Google searches seem to point strongly one way). However, as noted, in an article about the term itself, and its use in sport, I don't see how we can have no explanation of its use and meaning in the football context. Just because we do not have definitive definitional certainty, as it were, does not mean we have to avoid the subject altogether. The problem is how we phrase it. N-HH talk/edits

Two phrases remain problematic: The Republic's team is not usually referred to as a Home Nation and although the term is occasionally used in the British media. Extensive references are cited, however, AFAICT, none actually verify the assertions – leading to WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. The second phrase is also misleading. As noted above, in addition to the “British media” the FAI have used the term. I propose removing the entire sentence until something is agreed here. Daicaregos (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Several hours spent searching for references showing that the term Home Nations excludes the ROI football team, or variations on that theme, have failed to produce a single source. What the term refers to can be verified. I have been unable to verify what it is not. I propose to change the first paragraph of the Association Football section to: In association football, the Home Nations originally referred to the then four national teams of the United Kingdom: England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.ref Today, the term refers to the teams of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.ref Please note any objections, or suggestions for improvements here, rather than making bold edits to the article. The article can be changed once consensus has been reached here. Daicaregos (talk) 11:10, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it might be slightly better phrased in terms of what teams are included rather than saying what is not included, but I thought the consensus of the above discussion was that some sources (although possibly quite a small minority) do include the Irish team within the term? We can't really get away from that, whatever we think of it or whatever other sources say, including the "For Dummies" source cited (and is that the best source anyway, especially to use as an effective solo trump card?). Ultimately there is no objectively "right" answer here as it's not a proper formal classification to start with, yet the proposed wording is in a way even more definitive and restrictive than the current version, which at least acknowledges the verifiable fact that the Republic's team is sometimes included. N-HH talk/edits 11:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The current text cannot remain on the article, it is OR and SYNTH. The proposal is meant as a starting point, to be improved upon. It is, at least, verifiable (though other sources can be used, if preferred). Suggested (cited) text would be welcome. Daicaregos (talk) 13:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure the current version is SYNTH or OR as such. I'm not 100% happy with the way it is phrased personally (ie "not usually .. but sometimes in the British media"), but as a statement it is technically both accurate and verifiable. Taking your proposal, I would follow on with: " – the teams that until 1984 [?] used to contest the British Home Championship – although references to the Home Nations will sometimes include the Republic of Ireland team." Those two additional clauses are verifiable. The reference to the Home Championship may not be needed, but another editor above suggested it, and it seems to me to be both generally informative and also helps provide context as to what the "Home" designation has been applied to in a quasi-official sense. N-HH talk/edits 14:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

That would give: In association football, the Home Nations originally referred to the then four national teams of the United Kingdom: England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.ref Today, the term refers to the teams of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales – the teams that until 1984 used to contest the British Home Championship –ref although references to the Home Nations sometimes include the Republic of Ireland team.ref. I would support that. Daicaregos (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done All statements in the section are now verifiable. Daicaregos (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I propose that Countries of the United Kingdom be merged into this article. The rationale for this proposal is WP:NOTDICT: "Articles whose titles are different words for the same thing (synonyms) are duplicate articles that should be merged."

The the two terms are synonymous. For example, see the lead sentence from both:

• Countries of the United Kingdom: "The countries of the United Kingdom are England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales..."
• Home Nations: "The Home Nations refers collectively to England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (the four countries of the United Kingdom)..."

A difference is that one some occasions the whole of Ireland is included in home nations, whereas today it is no longer included in countries of the United Kingdom. Historically, of course, it is included in both and this should be handled in the article. That difference reason is why I am proposing the merger this way around rather than the other.

--RA (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: The terms are both inaccurate, in that Northern Ireland is neither a country nor a nation, but they are not synonymous, in that the island of Ireland is not referred to by anyone as a country of the UK. Brocach (talk) 18:57, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: More often than not in a sporting context, all of Ireland is referred to. Perhaps if an article on "Historic countries of the United Kingdom" existed, I'd support a merge. --HighKing (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I think it would raise more problems that it would solve, per the comments above. Also, Home Nations is more about the term and its sometimes varied use, whereas the "countries" is more about the substantive topic and its constituent parts. Maybe that's deprecated under WP policies (is it?), but it seems a logical distinction to me. N-HH talk/edits 22:10, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

  If this article is about a term (and I don't see any reason not) then the distinction makes enough sense to keep. I'll update the article to make this distinction clearer. --RA (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Country and nation are not the same thing. A country is the territory belonging to nation. Nation are the people with a collective national/ethnic identity. UK is neither a nation or a country, but a sovereign state with citizens and territory. -- PBS (talk) 15:51, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that those definitions are as rigid as that or that there is any intrinsic precision in them (there's quite a lot of overlap and fuzziness with these terms as they are used; and, for example, the idea that the UK is "neither a nation or a country" is probably not universally agreed). The same applies, more specifically, to the term "Home Nations" – as the article acknowledges, it has different and discrete meanings in different contexts. Hence I'm not sure that the roll-back of recent changes is necessarily right. As discussed above, this article is probably correctly described as being about the term and its use, rather than a concrete and fixed concept, or set of things, directly equivalent to "constituent countries of the United Kingdom". N-HH talk/edits 20:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Makes sense. Both mean the sme. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Home Internationals at the bridge table

Home international competition at the bridge table, namely Camrose Trophy (open) and Lady Milne Trophy (women), now comprises six teams. Five represent England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland --by some qualification as national champions, I understand, which may differ among them, I presume. The sixth team, from 2009, is a second one from the host nation. Women representing ROI have participated from 1998, so there were 11 Lady Milne tournaments of five teams, an odd number.

• Source: "The Lady Milne Home Internationals for Womens Teams" (Wales 2012)

--odd and inconvenient, as Teams-of-four play comprises two-team matches as in field sports. Evidently, so inconvenient that a sixth team was added --perhaps not constituted by qualifying play (no source that I've seen, but I'm an outsider who presumes that it may differ among the rotating host nations)

Reporter Patrick Jourdain is clear and uncertain in that linked article. The Lady Milne tournament became "home international" in 1950 when entry was restricted to one team from each country rather than "open" (to all teams of 4+ women, or women members of the sponsoring association, willing and able to pay the entry fee, I suppose).

We cover the parallel Camrose Trophy for teams that are "open" in the sense not restricted to women, teens, seniors --but national representative teams. It comprises six teams from 2007, with the extra team from the defending champion to 2009, then from the host. There were five "home international" teams from 1999 to 2006, evidently, and also before 1951, as I understand Ireland's "48-year absence".

• "Home international" in a newspaper bridge column, The Guardian 26 Jan 2011.

• "Internationals" at English Bridge Union – covers home, European, and perhaps World levels indifferently. "Here you will find information on all the England representative teams."

P.S. Ireland plays as one in international competition outside the British Isles – what we outsiders simply call international competition. "The IBU was formed in the 1950's in Belfast on a Good Friday after a process of reconciliation and friendship to allow players from both sides of the border to represent the island as a whole in European and World Championships." ... "formed in 1955 to build such a bridge to allow players to represent Ireland as a whole" [2]

P.P.S. From 2000 England, Scotland, and Wales are represented separately in European and World bridge tournaments (except one 2002 event sponsored by IOC). At the moment I rely on details in "International record for Nicola Smith". World Bridge Federation. (select "Playing Record (Team Events)").

--P64 (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Re the last paragraph, let me expand and provide more official sources.

From 2000 England, Scotland, and Wales are represented separately—and neither the UK GBNI nor the island GB any longer represented—in those European Bridge League and World Bridge Federation tournaments with national representation.

* 44th European Team Championships, 1999: Great Britain Open 12th, Women 1st. Ireland 17th, no Women team.

* 45th European Team Championships, 2001: England 14th, 1st; Scotland 15th, 21st; Wales 22nd, 20th. Ireland 31st, none.

In the subsequent world championships with national team qualification at the Euro level, the 1999 Great Britain Women and 2001 England Women qualified, alone from the British Isles, and finished 11th and 7th for the biennial WBF Venice Cup.

The UK GBNI, aka Great Britain, remained (and remains today) a member of the Olympic movement. Thus Great Britain was represented, and Nicola Smith played again for Great Britain, in the last international bridge tournament sponsored by the International Olympic Committee.

* 4th IOC Grand Prix, 2002: Great Britain Open none, Women 7th.

--P64 (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Momentarily I post a cross-reference to here from Talk:Terminology of the British Isles#Home International sporting competition. --P64 (talk) 17:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)