Talk:History of New Rochelle, New York

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Split from main article[edit]

As there was no opposition against the split of the history related material from the main article New Rochelle, New York, I was bold and just did it. Remember, I did not add any material. I just moved it for better maintenance and for improvement. doxTxob \ talk 21:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article improvement discussion[edit]

The article needs improvement, no doubt about that, below I have pasted suggestions for improvement that were made at Talk:New Rochelle, New York/Archives/2012#Suggested split of the history section to a new article. I am certain that with help of the community, this can be develpoed into a great article.

X-posted from Talk:New Rochelle, New York/Archives/2012#Suggested split of the history section to a new article), shortened a little where marked "(...)".
(X-posted from: User talk:Orlady#History of New Rochelle, New York) Hey Orlady, You have been involved with the New Rochelle, New York topics for a while so I thought to let you know about my plan. That article is getting quite long and WP:split suggests that a split should be due at that length. (...) Anyway, the proposal is not worse than the article before and not better sourced yet, either. The content is improved, a copyvio has been removed and the stuff is much better to read as I have sorted the timeline into sections by topic for the centuries and re-formulated it to prose. The separate history article would make both articles easier to maintain and for users who are interested in the topic the better structure would make sure that additional information is added in the right place. (...) If you do not have any major (!) concerns, I will be bold and just go ahead. Take care, doxTxob \ talk 03:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(X-posted from: User talk:DoxTxob#History of New Rochelle) I'm pleased to see that you have taken up the project of splitting the excessively long New Rochelle article by converting the history section into a stand-alone article. You have taken on a lot of work there -- I expect that the job of evaluating the sources of the history content on the New Rochelle page will be onerous. Good luck! (...)
The first comment I wanted to make has to do with the page's version of a short passage in the lead section that I have objected to elsewhere (I've labeled some of it as "puffery"). In detail, here are the concerns I have had about the sentences I have questioned:
  • "The era of suburban living began in the late 1800s..." - Those words are a rhetorical flourish that I suspect (considering the contributor's copyvio history) was "borrowed" from somewhere else. Unless some other published source describes "the era of suburban living" as having started in New Rochelle, I strongly believe that this should be replaced with a more objectively worded statement (sourced, I hope) about the community's transformation to a bedroom suburb beginning in the late 1800s.
  • "...when the New York & New Haven Railroad opened a line with a stop in New Rochelle." - This could be converted to a factual statement about the opening of the railroad line and establishment of the stop at New Rochelle, including a specific date instead of a broad flourish about "late 1800s". As one contributor has pointed out (sorry, I forget where), the railroad company (which has its own article) may have had a different name at the time that the service to New Rochelle was established.
  • "It was during this period that the city became famous as a summer resort." - Where's the source for the assertion that New Rochelle became famous as a summer resort?
  • "New Rochelle soon became one of the country's first 'bedroom communities'..." - This is another statement that needs to be sourced.
  • "...with most residents traveling daily to New York City for work, and back home to the suburbs to sleep." - This wording also seems very likely to be copied from some other source. (...) --Orlady (talk) 17:45, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was intrigued by the "era of suburban living". It turns out that this was first(?) added by User:FlannaryFamily in this edit with the extremely confusing edit summary "info update". The user is now blocked as a sockpuppet. For comparison, the text added by the user:
The era of suburban living began around the year 1849 when the New York and New Haven Railroad opened a line with a stop in New Rochelle. It was during this period that New Rochelle became famous as a summer resort.
And for comparison a passage from New Rochelle, Portrait of a City by Merrill and Finn:
... York and New Haven Railroad opened a line that stopped in New Rochelle. Then the era of suburban living began. It was during this period that New Rochelle became famous as a summer resort.
With Google Books' snippet view I can't read more, but I verified that "1849" also appears on the same page. This is an obvious copyright violation. I am beginning to see the dimension of the problem. This kind of thing is very hard to spot and can bring Wikipedia into serious difficulties. Just rephrasing the text is not enough once the original version has been added, since then it's a derivative of the copyrighted text. --Hans Adler (talk) 19:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I never said it was perfect the way it is, this is the information that is currently present in the New Rochelle Article. So this version is not worse than the article. I understand both of your concerns and I will address them by removing some of the unfounded information step by step. I have removed one copyright problem already, the poem. doxTxob \ talk 21:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your key points are listed point by point below so they can be used as a to do list. doxTxob \ talk 03:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have made some spot checks on the text to find out if copyrights might be violated all over the article. That is not the case. I have checked the sources available on the internet and found that the information is OK and has been reformulated. I checked the following sources against the article text and did not find any copyvio: [1], [2] and [3]. I did not check any sources that are available in written form only. The facts are mentioned but have been reformulated and put into context here in the article. Is that enough to convince you not to delete the article completely just because it might sound like a copyvio, but to work on the criticism piece by piece? doxTxob \ talk 03:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[unindent] I appreciate your comments and interest to help improve this article. I suggest a system to address the concerns efficiently. Please do not add lengthy discussions to the to do list below. That would only contribute to the confusion and would not help much to improve the article in general. Lengthy discussions are welcome above in the "Article improvement" section. If your specific concern can be formulated in one or two sentences, please do not discuss it but be bold and add it to the list below, right away (newest entries at the end, please!). Could we agree on that system? Any suggestions to find a more sufficient system to improve article quality are very welcome. Thank you! doxTxob \ talk 03:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To do list article improvement[edit]

The following is a list of specific suggestions to improve the article, every point that has been addressed sould be marked {{done}} which looks like this: "  Done " Please add a short comment how the problem was and add your signature (~~~~) if you have solved the point, that documents the change.

  • "The era of suburban living began in the late 1800s..." - Those words are a rhetorical flourish that I suspect (considering the contributor's copyvio history) was "borrowed" from somewhere else. Unless some other published source describes "the era of suburban living" as having started in New Rochelle, I strongly believe that this should be replaced with a more objectively worded statement (sourced, I hope) about the community's transformation to a bedroom suburb beginning in the late 1800s.
 Done Deleted in article. doxTxob \ talk 03:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...when the New York & New Haven Railroad opened a line with a stop in New Rochelle." - This could be converted to a factual statement about the opening of the railroad line and establishment of the stop at New Rochelle, including a specific date instead of a broad flourish about "late 1800s". As one contributor has pointed out (sorry, I forget where), the railroad company (which has its own article) may have had a different name at the time that the service to New Rochelle was established.
 Done Deleted in article. doxTxob \ talk 03:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was during this period that the city became famous as a summer resort." - Where's the source for the assertion that New Rochelle became famous as a summer resort?
 Done Deleted in article. doxTxob \ talk 03:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "New Rochelle soon became one of the country's first 'bedroom communities'..." - This is another statement that needs to be sourced.
  • "...with most residents traveling daily to New York City for work, and back home to the suburbs to sleep." - This wording also seems very likely to be copied from some other source.
  • The era of suburban living began around the year 1849 when the New York and New Haven Railroad opened a line with a stop in New Rochelle. It was during this period that New Rochelle became famous as a summer resort. And for comparison a passage from New Rochelle, Portrait of a City by Merrill and Finn: ... York and New Haven Railroad opened a line that stopped in New Rochelle. Then the era of suburban living began. It was during this period that New Rochelle became famous as a summer resort.
 Done Deleted in article. doxTxob \ talk 03:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jacob Leisler fact[edit]

changed a jacob leisler reference that was incorrect. he arrived in 1660 in the employ of the dutch west india company. Have nice time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.232.166 (talk) 05:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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