Talk:High Council of Sweden

This article contains links to non-existent article about each of the high officers of state. The only article which does exist is about the Lord High Chancellor of Sweden. It actually contains less information than is here. Is anyone planning to write articles on these subjects, or should they simply be de-linked with all references directing here? Sandpiper 12:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move per m:The Wrong Version. I don't see much in the way of rationales here to move it back as much as I see people wanting to move it back because it used to be there. While it is admittedly not a Good Thing to move the page without any discussion, you're going to need to discuss this anyway and you may as well do that now rather than later. Kyle Barbour 23:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

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High Council of Sweden → Privy Council of Sweden — This article was renamed to "High Council of Sweden" by User:Suedois with any previous discussion. I don't see why this article should have any other name than other privy councils that exist (e.g. Privy Council of the United Kingdom, Privy Council of Ireland etc.). Slarre 01:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support. Previous move should not have been made without disucssion as Riksrådet or Statsrådet don't seem to obviously translate as "high council." —  AjaxSmack  03:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Support Discussion should have preceded move, since it's obvious that multiple translations of the relevant term have been used in Wiki without any being particularly authoritative. Moreover the fundamental argument for the move seems to rest on unwarranted anglophobia. I add my vote here in case the Speedy Revert request fails. Lethiere 07:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose. good name. Serves historical accuracy better than any British copycat. Suedois 06:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

"Privy" Council is a British term, and if you compare the explanations given at privy council, you see that an also the fact it does not fit with the Swedish organ throughout its history. They were not an inner circle dependent on monarch's favor, they often formed an opposite force against ruler, being a constitutional body. The council existed and functioned in times when Swden did not have a king or queen as ruler - and they were the highest organ of suchlike "republic" of nobility then. There are valid theories that membership in the body was recognized as hereditary to some noble families - in this sense, this eas more like House of Lords. When asked for translations, riksråd translates directly "Realm's Council". Of course, it was highest of the country's various councils. When Sweden got organization resembling more the autocracy etc, its name, new, actually was "kunglig råd", royal council. And when it got modern forms, that organ was statsråd, council of state.Historical accuracy does not support "privy council". Suedois 06:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Fine, but where does "high council" come from? Do you have a source for this or is it original research? I'm not familiar with how the body is usually translated but I reckon riksråd would be "royal council" and statsrådet "state council" — not exactly the same as "high council." —  AjaxSmack  06:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There are so many terms floating around in literature that I cannot remember where each individual such is. If you look at the article's own terminology, and its edit history, to some editors this has been Senate, to some Council of State, to some Cabinet, to some High Council, to some Royal Council, to some Council of Realm, and to some just Council of Sweden. And, many of those were just a moment ago present, confusingly, in portions of the text. Name of this is not a simple thing, sorry. Worst is if someone just barges in and demands it to be a british privy council. We should have a proper study of the matter, and discard this in-barged vote. User:Suedois 06:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't endorsing any particular name. However, you changed the title to "High Council" with no explanation and no citation ([1]) and marked it as a minor edit. I'm saying the article should be returned to its original title until after a discussion is had and justification for a new title is made. —  AjaxSmack  09:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right, consensus need to be reached before making controversial moves, especially when they are made without any explanation or without any previous discussion. I've reported this article for speedy renaming at Wikipedia:Requested moves, so that an administrator can move it back. /Slarre 22:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This seems like a pretty sneaky move. For Suedois to now claim on WP:RM that the move back is controversial is to attempt to steal burden of proof in the case of a lack of consensus. Poor form. -- Exitmoose 07:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if we must get to L.A. via Omaha then so be it.

High Council of Sweden → Privy Council of Sweden or something else – for any reason other than the fact that "Privy Council of Sweden" was the original title and the recent move to "High Council of Sweden" was not discussed. —  AjaxSmack  02:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support. Riksråd is roughly "royal council" and statsrådet "state council" — not the same as "high council." And both are privy councils. Would also support Swedish Council of State (cf. Danish Council of State) if it is more appropriate. —  AjaxSmack  02:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Support. I agree with AjaxSmack. "High council" is not an appropriate translation of "riksråd". /Slarre 12:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Support per AjaxSmack -- Exitmoose 00:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
4. Support Multiple translations of the relevant term have been used in Wiki without any being particularly authoritative. Moreover the fundamental argument for the move seems to rest on unwarranted anglophobia. Lethiere 12:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
5. Support. My comments below. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 04:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

Discussion

Comment - Just for the record, I hope this page doesn't stay at its current location in the case of "no consensus". -- Exitmoose 00:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• Privy council is supported at dictionary.com
• Britannica prefers State council"[2][3] or Council of realm"[4]. I would support any of these three. High council seems neologistic. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 04:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Since it appears that the page will be moved back to its former title, the sections below are to continue the discussion on what the best title is and what scope of the article should be. ~  AjaxSmack  07:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Statsrådet info should be moved

The connexion between the Riksråd and the later Statsråd is tenuous at best. Swedish Wikipedia has separate articles and the article for sv:Statsrådet is a one sentence stub that says something to the effect of "Statsrådet is the name for the government of Sweden after 1809." Therefore, maybe the info here that deals with the Statsråd can be merged with Government of Sweden as a historical section. Please comment. ~  AjaxSmack  07:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Is "privy council" the best term for riksrådet ?

If the article should be primarily or exclusively about the riksråd, is "privy council" the best term for riksrådet ? If anyone is versed in this subject please comment on which form or forms usually appear in the relevant literature. Some points to ponder: The German synonym Reichsrat often translates as "royal" or "imperial council." Wikipedia already has Rigsraadet as a generic article for all of the Scandinavian councils. See also SigPig's citations above which suggest "state council" of "council of the realm." ~  AjaxSmack  07:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)