Talk:Hellions of Troy

General tone of the article and appearance of edit wars

The main section of the article demonstrates some marked POV, to the point of being written in the first person. There are a LOT of anonymous edits to this article. Some which seem to come from a negative POV and some which seem to come from a positive POV. Given the league's history, it's possible that some editors may be using Wikipedia as a proxy for their fight over a league split or other issues. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedic reference. TimBRoy (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Request future edits to this page no longer be anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amydmoore (talk • contribs) 15:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Continuing to restore historical citations regarding the history of the league. The anonymous user who keeps removing these citations adds non-verifiable and revisionist information. The Hellions have a significant body of cited history and retention of this history is critical to keeping this a neutral article and not a marketing piece for the entity. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 16:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)ADM/BB

Statements of "unanimous league votes" are not verifiable. "New direction" is citable in Hellions of Troy twitter. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 18:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Making statements about the "future" of the organization are clearly marketing copy Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 18:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

This article historically included the information about the initial founders (which HAD included a member not voted off of the All Stars because he was ineligible to be a member due to his gender but was a founder of the Hellions - albeit no longer documented) from the beginning of its authorship. As it was a matter of historical significance when originally written and not in dispute at that time, it continues to be historically significant. It is an important component for encyclopedic reference. User AndreaMChen and anonymous user 167.166.23.253 seem to continue to want to slander user AmyDMoore. Citations provide backing for article as written. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

It's apparent that both sides of the edit war are or were involved with the organization that's being documented. Both sides seem ready to use this article as a proxy for their derby drama. One side seems to be a bit more skilled at Wikipedia rules-lawyering. It would probably be better if both of them refrained from editing the article. TimBRoy (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll keep it to scores updates. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 19:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution

The content of this article and references were not in dispute until the original author resigned from the organization - this is clear. The original article stated:

The Hellions of Troy were founded in September 2008 by former members of the Albany All Stars - The Beirut Bombshell, Bitches Bruze, Flame RollHer, Flexi Wheeler and Will Jettison.

The original author of this article has contributed to Wikipedia for many years and is striving to keep this article unbiased and reflecting authoritative sources. The anonymous editor - a self-declared member of this organization - persists in including marketing copy. This is NOT the purpose of Wikipedia. Save that for Facebook and MySpace and Twitter. Restoration in the History section to the original article content would be acceptable. This information WAS also duplicated on the organization's official web site until Will Jettison and Bitches Bruze left the organization.

Even Andreamchen knows she was voted off the Albany All Stars and knows who the "we" in the Times Union article refers to. Comments following AOA coverage of the article concur with at least The Beirut Bombshell and Flexi Wheeler also "leaving" the All Stars. This editor is not in the habit of referring to herself as "we". The anonymous editor is not cited in the Times Union article because she works for the Times Union and Flexi Wheeler was unavailable for the interview.

Internal politics DO NOT and CANNOT dictate the content of Wikipedia articles. The organization was fully aware of the original content of this article and revisionist history should and will get vandalizing editors blocked.

Please, let's work this out here rather than on the Wikipedia article. The historical founding and construction of the Hellions of Troy is important information which makes this entry something other than a marketing piece. Listing founders is standard practice for the few roller derby leagues who have entries. Please stop removing this edit. It is not original research because at the time of its authorship, it was verified on the organization's web site. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 00:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Examples of Histories which the original article and current version are based on Arizona Derby Dames, Gotham Girls Roller Derby, and Providence Roller Derby. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 00:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

From Wikipedia's guidelines is the following: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." The information continuing to be put forth (Hellions founders having been "voted off" the All Stars) in the Wikipedia article is not verifiable anywhere. It has never been published by a reliable source. It is no more verifiable than the entry I mistakenly made about the conditions surrounding the resignation of Amy Moore/Bitches Bruze from the Hellions of Troy. There is no such mention anywhere on the official Hellions of Troy website. Although there is a "Hellions of Troy Roller Derby" website, it was created and is maintained by Amy Moore/Bitches Bruze and is not an artifact of the Hellions of Troy Roller Derby League. In fact, the Hellions of Troy Roller Derby League does not control nor endorse anything on the inauthentic site. Ms. Moore having been voted off the Albany All Stars is and has been the only reliably reported information on the topic. Until or unless another reliable source can be provided which explicitly states the conditions under which any previous members of the Albany All Stars came to be members of the Hellions of Troy, I would aver this repeated attempt to rewrite the Wiki entry more than a month after her resignation is questionable. AndreaMChen (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Upon checking, the very original Wikipedia entry from October 2008, consistent up until March 2009, simply stated who the founding members of the Hellions of Troy were. From a revisionistic history perspective, it is curious that a member who resigned the league thought it would be valuable to the Wiki community to rewrite the entry for an organization to which she no longer belongs----implying that anyone beside just herself was voted off the Albany All Stars when the original article said no such thing. AndreaMChen (talk) 01:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Certainly the conditions for "leaving the All Stars" is not critical information for the Wikipedia entry - however the original citation clearly indicates (with words like "we" and "us") someone other than Bitches Bruze was voted off - a fact that was not contested until February 2009. I have edited the History section (since the current organization does not seem to want to have it in the About section) to reflect the content originally written and approved by the now temporarily blocked anonymous editor. I have also added more traditional citations which prove without "original research" three of the five founding members of the league. If Andreamchen would like to remove FlameRollHer and Will Jettison from that list since they cannot be verified through published sources, she should feel free to do so. The fact I no longer belong to the Hellions is a prime reason my editing is important for Wikipedia as I can help continue to ensure an unbiased article. The banned anonymous editor (editing from the Times Union) began modifying this record in February 2009 (not March 2009) with this edit - coinciding with my departure from the organization - mostly by removing a majority of the citations and copy relating to those citations and inserting first person POV marketing copy. Many removals included citations of articles published by his or her own newspaper (The Albany Times Union - registered to the IP address 167.166.23.253). I have not removed changes which are verifiable which have been constructively made by other editors. Please stop continuing to personally libel me on this article and in this talk forum. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 02:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, secondary sources (newspapers, magazines, books and the like) are generally better than primary source (the league's web site, a corporate house organ newspaper, etc). As a third party who isn't on either side here, I'm not sure how relevant it really is who is on the board and when or why they left. The derby articles I've seen that go into great detail about who does/did what (beyond some saying who started the league) tend to reek of self-promotion.

I'm not sure how interesting internecine squabbles and politics within a fairly new roller derby league are to the audience. With a current member and a former member being the two editors of the article, I'm less than certain we're likely to wind up with any kind of NPOV.

Where is the league based? What rules set do they skate by? What are their accomplishments? What are the teams called? Which home team was the champion in 2006? What tournaments have they participated in or hosted? When did Gene Simmons sing the national anthem at a bout? That's the stuff that you'll generally find in a good derby league article.

Things like which members left at which time, how many members there were in May versus August, etc etc etc, aren't terribly useful inasmuch as they're nearly impossible to verify when the two opposing parties are here editing the article. TimBRoy (talk) 15:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This article used to cite bout scores but those were removed by 74.70.192.98 in this edit. I find them useful information on other derby team articles because it helps get a sense of the level of play and the region of play of the team. Not all bout scores are verifiable on sustained sources, but they have been published on Derby News Network (which does not retain non-WFTDA scores for public publication). Would editor TimBRoy find their reintroduction acceptable? I concur historical quantities of skaters is useless and inappropriate as found in this edit by 68.172.105.1. Just trying to maintain the historical context of the founding of this league as it was a significant news topic (more so, unfortunately, than the league's accomplishments). It seems to be common, at least in the Northeast region, to note founders as this is a pretty geographically dense region of skaters and fairly well networked - hence the citation of other Northeast leagues with Wikipedia pages. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

A fair number of cites on Wikipedia are to information on the web that's no longer available online. I'm not exactly sure how it's done, but I've seen some citations use something like "retrieved on," but you'd have to do a bit of research on how that's correctly done. It is possible that DNN may at some point in the future make past bout results viewable/browseable. At some point, outside of things like tournaments or championship games, bout results either become a treadmill (constantly needing updates) or it winds up like some of the derby articles (or MySpace profiles). Time appears to have stopped in April 2008 or whenever. TimBRoy (talk) 08:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Derby News Network now allows people to search for ALL past official bout scores. New citations reference the location where this can be done. Unfortunately there is not a static URL which can be used to reference a particular bout score, but the database is well maintained. This page will likely be updated quite regularly with record scores. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 14:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

User 167.166.23.253 has been banned for edit wars on this article. While "not verifiable" the facts are not in dispute as they were part of the original article. Citing founders is common practice for derby leagues in Northeast. No valid reason to be modifying historically accurate article especially in the "history". Plenty of articles cited in this entry cite founders. There is no legitimate reason to continually delete this section. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 00:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit wars continue. The original article information is and always has been accurate. Current "members" of this league should not be altering historical entries to satisfy current politics. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 14:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Past members of this league probably shouldn't be editing it either. Color me unimpressed with the behavior of both sides. TimBRoy (talk) 17:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It is my experience that former skaters for roller derby leagues tend to be incredibly biased and vindictive. It appears that Amy Moore has a reason to be vindictive, as she owns and operates www.hellionsoftroy.com and speaks of a dispute over sponsorship obligations. The site claims that the Hellions of Troy owe the former skater money or the fulfillment of sponsorship obligations. Since this type of dispute would likely cause some hard feelings, I find it inappropriate for her to continue making edits to this page. (Whois lookup confirmed that the website is indeed registered and maintained by Amy Moore.) Plenty of people not directly affiliated with the league (past or present) would be handier in providing unbiased, notable material about the league. Encyclopediaclown (talk) 19:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't know who Encyclopediaclown is - no other information exists on user. Ownership of a domain name is different than the ownership of a web site. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 05:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Then we're to assume good faith on his editing and commenting. Encyclopediaclown has done some work on other pages involving roller derby, roller derby leagues and other topics. As for who he might be, unless he displays partisanship or demonstrates a connection to the subject (like you and another editor seem to have) that doesn't really matter much. Your name is or was connected with the league (as a Google search or click on the references clearly shows). TimBRoy (talk) 00:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd appreciate reciprocity in assuming good faith on my editing and commenting. I have edited other roller derby content as well as significant non-roller derby content. Encyclopediaclown's contribution to roller derby editing seems to have been to protect the interest of NHRD - which is fine and in the same manner I assume good faith in those edits. I just had not done anything controversial on this page at or near the time of this comment. I created the original article, owned the original domain names, and was involved in pretty much ALL the original press because I was an original founder - none of that is in dispute so it doesn't belong here. With some technical correction exceptions, former or present members of the league have maintained all the content of this page - because they know the information better than anyone. My only other "goal" has been to keep my personal name from being unreasonably disparaged. I am beginning to wonder if this page belongs on Wikipedia at all but I feel its historical content has some kind of contribution to readers which would be valuable as encyclopedic content (although seemingly less and less and more and more marketing content). I've stopped updating scores because the May opponent was not the travel team of the listed league and it seems as though the score was not recorded in a verifiable source - possibly because of that. Question to TimBRoy - does this article remain relevant and important for Wikipedia? I created it because the list of Roller Derby Leagues suggested a link to a Wikipedia article was preferred over a link to the league's site. Amy "Bitches Bruze" Moore (talk) 05:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

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