Talk:Heather Southcott

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Parliamentary Leader

Can anyone find a solid source that she actually was state leader of the Democrats? Every source I can find goes back to the usually-reliable Encyclopedia of Women & Leadership, which refers to her as having been "State Leader" and "National Leader". This is clearly wrong as Southcott was never the federal leader of the party. She was, however, federal president, which is not the same thing. It never explicitly states that she was the state leader (or gives dates for state service in either role), and repeatedly makes the incorrect claim that national president meant "National Leader". Lance Milne and Ian Gilfillan were already in parliament before Southcott was elected, so while she could well have been, it isn't necessarily a given (the Greens certainly have tended to stick with more experienced leaders in the upper house). I'm inclined to remove it unless a better source can be found. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:37, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The EWL says, "and was subsequently elected State Leader and then National Leader of the Australian Democrats." I don't see how the "National" part could be correct, because Don Chipp was national leader by then. She was in parliament before Ian Gilfillan (her by-election was before the 1982 state election) but you are correct that Lance Milne was already in parliament from 1979 onwards. I can remember Southcott asserting that she was the first female parliamentary leader, after someone else claimed to be the first female leader of a parliamentary party (probably in the 1980s or when Carmen Lawrence became WA leader in 1990; I would have read that in the Adelaide Advertiser and it would be extremely hard to find!). So I can think of two alternatives: (1) she was elected Democrats leader ahead of Milne, or (2) she was their leader in the lower house. I think (2) is more likely.

Also, Janine Haines was the only Democrat senator from December 1977 to June 1978 (Don Chipp was elected at the 1977 but didn't take his seat until 1 July 1978). So Haines would be the first female parliamentary leader, though I don't think I have ever seen that claimed. Southcott is probably the first female party leader (or possibly, female party leader in one of the houses) in any state parliament. Adpete (talk) 09:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

So, The Canberra Times in Trove saves the day - reporting from the 1982 election campaign referring to Southcott as "the party's parliamentary leader" and "the leader of the Australian Democrats". So, bodgy research that has been reported by way too many sources that should know the difference between party president and party leader aside, it looks like she actually was the first woman parliamentary leader. I wouldn't count Haines as having been leader in the 70s the absence of sources to that effect - AFAIK, Chipp was known as the party's leader, and it's not uncommon for minor parties to do a Campbell Newman and have an MP who isn't the leader. Given the Haines comment - any objection to reinstating the statement about Southcott being the first, given the better sourcing? The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Good find, though neither of them refer to her as the first female parliamentary leader. However this Adelaide Uni "Archives & Special Collections" page does: "She became the first woman to lead a parliamentary political party in Australia." [1]. So yes, reinstate it. My comments about Haines in 1977-78 were my own thoughts; we certainly cannot claim her as leader in 1977-78 without a source. Adpete (talk) 10:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks - will do. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:31, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Very good rewrite. I was going to go back and remove some of the off-topic stuff, and found you had already done it! Adpete (talk) 21:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

And no sooner did I think we'd sorted it when, in trying to research your results question, I turned up this, which says Lance Milne was the parliamentary leader at the same time. Same paper, three weeks after. I have no idea how to square that - maybe your initial idea was right and it was a lower-house/upper-house leader situation, which seems a bit silly for a party with (at that time) one MP in each house. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry only saw this reply a day or 2 ago! I can find mentions of her being a leader in Federal [2] and State Legislative Council [3] Hansards. The Federal one also mentions that the SA House of Assembly would have condolence motions that day (4 Dec 2014). It also mentions she was a great aunt of Andrew Southcott. The state Hansard ("was the first woman to lead a political party in Australia") might be a useful ref. It appears to be the governor's speech, which would have been on the advice of the (2015, Labor) government; and if anyone was going to deny that she was the first female parliamentary leader it would be Labor, because I'm pretty sure that honour would otherwise go to a Labor party woman. Adpete (talk) 11:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

And here is the (fairly long) SA House of Assembly condolence session [4]. If there is an equivalent session in the LC, I can't find it yet. Adpete (talk) 23:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I've been on Wikipedia long enough to be wary of legacy claims that can't be backed up with verifiable facts: if someone was the first something, but no one can say when, it wouldn't be the first time we've found upon further research that it was just a story that had been told so many times it took on a life of its own. Happy to leave it because of what we found earlier (in spite of the inconsistency), but I'd much rather a source that either gave dates or explained their leadership arrangements rather than repeating the same sentence in every other source. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)