Talk:Hawiye

The Hawiye are the largest population in East Africa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.145.170.196 (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Size

There have been a number of back-and-forth edits regarding which Somali clan is the largest (e.g. Darod or Hawiye). I haven't been able to come up with any good numbers, myself, but I did cite a couple of sources. This didn't seem to help with the back-and-forth edits. However, in the absence of other citations I will continue to revert to a version that includes them. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC) Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin Free Palestin unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

That text cites its source. Can you explain how you think this should be corrected, and provide a different source to support it? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:30, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

According to Hawiye traditions and elders, Hawiye ancestor is irir and Irir ancestor is Samaale, Irir Samaale ( Irir Samaale) is the oldest ancestor known and there is no such thing as Ram nag, its very much an insult coming from the arab darod clans who lately find out the only real Soomaali people are hawiye whit direct Ancestor of Iirir Samaale who are related to Galla and oromo People. The evidence is not only Galla oromo and hawiye have same DNA,which every one knows but you can also read it hawiye History that " According to tbe accounts received by Sottiro, the Hawiyas have a large infusion of Galla blood, to which may perhaps be attributed the fact that their complexion is of a lighter shade than that of the seaboard tribes." http://operationoverload.wordpress.com/category/hawiye-history-before-the-somali-republic/ not only that But also Hawiye clan names " Hawiye, Gorgarte, Jambeele Karanle Murale " are all oromo and have no Somali meaning all Originated the Original cushitic Languages which have meaning in Oromo Language but not in Somali.

According to the linguistics Soomaali and Oromo and other east african cushitic languages split 3000,000 years ago when people who use to speak same language move apart and migrated from inside eathiopia to kenya and Somalia coast therefore Hawiye was the most important Somali clan who was present in split and split from Oromo and other cushitic tribes to created the Somali section of the eastern Cushitic language, there fore Irir Samaale is the Olderst Known Ancesstor of Hawiye, who related to the great people of Galla and Oromo sources are every where,

Here you can read the Orinigs of Galla and Somali , clearly Galla and Somali" hawiye" originated southern Ethiopia, Somali expanded east and north. and not from North as you cited, on the link i told you to remove. The first written of any Galla or Somali group is found in the wrings of the Arab geography the link below from reliable source, and Hawiye is the first written of any Somali or Galla group. This indicates fist written History is recoded is only after hawiye and Galla Oromo split and clearly this are same people.

http://wisc.academia.edu/HerbertLewis/Papers/188960/The_Origins_of_the_Galla_and_Somali

so please kindly remove it and leave as it was from April this year as shown in the link below. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hawiye

Thank you.

Please note that we can't cite blogs, like the operationoverload.wordpress.com site – better to cite the book from which this was obtained ([1]). In any case, you haven't really demonstrated why the "Ram Nag" information is wrong (other than offering your own word about it). I don't know if it's correct or not, but it is sourced (which is what Wikipedia policy is concerned about). Here is exactly what it says: "Dir, the father-in-law of Darod, is said to be the uncle of Esa Madoba and brother of Hawiya Irrir, who founded the Esa tribe of Zeila and the Hawiya of Somalia respectively. Ram Nag, the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi, are of unknown origin, but probably Arabians who landed at Zeila." (It's only a limited preview so I had to search Google a couple of different ways [2], [3]). That said, it does appear to be a footnote and/or part of an Appendix, so I can't tell what the entire context is. For now, at least, we can flag the text in question. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Note also that I. M. Lewis mentions Ram Nag, but curiously cites Hunt as saying Ram Nag was Hindu ([4]). Hunt (assuming it's the same author) speculated Ram Nag was Arabian, at least in the source that we've cited. Again, though, I have flagged the statement in question. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:13, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that the complaints may have more to do with ideology than with sourcing (viz. "its very much an insult coming from the arab darod clans who lately find out the only real Soomaali people are hawiye whit direct Ancestor of Iirir Samaale who are related to Galla and oromo People"). As discussed at length by the linguist Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi on pages 12-16 of his book [5], it's actually the Herbert Lewis theory above that's the dubious, newfangled one as to the origins of certain Somali clans. The clan genealogy cited in this wiki article is primarily based on an official survey by the colonial administration in British Somaliland, not on private convictions or speculation. As such, I don't think it's dubious. The notion that Ram Nag may have instead been of Indian extraction is also another common account (e.g. [6]). A third, less common account, is that Ram Nag was of Abyssinian background [7] (I.M. Lewis talks a bit about this as well in that book linked to above [8]). Also, please note that the wiki passage states that Ram Nag is the supposed great-grandfather of the Hawiye's progenitor, not that he himself is the clan's immediate forefather. The latter would still be the Hawiya Irrir that the user above refers to. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, I believe this ("According to an official Military Survey…") was an important clarification. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

not only ideology but also its very much not related to hawiye and hawiye people.

as you say ("According to an official Military Survey…") by the colonial administration in British Somaliland? Clearly this has nothing to do whit hawiye, because british Somaliland, is not hawiyeland, therefore you should not cite non hawiye related Survey to Hawiye people History and oringin. hawiyeland is Italian Somaliland and Not british Somaliland and you should not cite non hawiye for hawiye.

This is second time I am writing this you should not delete my facts.

If Ram Nag is the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi ." Then that is thier History and Origin and not Hawiye,therefore i am asking you, as a Hawiye Elder reprecentetive remove it and not delete my arguments.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.30.45.98 (talk) 22:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the Hawiye indeed traditionally did not inhabit British Somaliland. However, per I.M. Lewis, the Military Survey in question was conducted in 1945 [9]. That was during the British military administration of both British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland (where the Hawiye did live), just prior to the start of the Trusteeship period [10]. Further, Ram Nag is held to be the father of Zumali/Samale (c.f. [11], [12]). And Zumali/Samale, I think you'll concede, is believed to be the founding father of many Somali clans, including the Dir and Hawiye clans. If you know of a reliable source that disputes Ram Nag's association with Hawiya Irir, please cite it. I reckon it would take some doing though since that would also involve disassociating Ram Nag from his putative son, Zumali/Samale. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 11:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no such Survey took place in South Somalia where Hawiye live, or even Digil and Mirifl, My own Father was working both Italian and British Regimes from 1940 till late 50's , not only he remember but he knows very well, there is no such Military survey took place in south Somalia where hawiye live, This was only is conducted in The north Soomalia where DIR Isaaq and Darod live. I argue other people who reading to digthis and read the British military History books in British Somali land how when and where and who this survey is conducted, and I will also do my own research and find out, i can guarantee you The Story of Ram Nag is mainly came from the North Somalia clans therefore is their own ancestry and their own History and not the History of the great Hawiye people.

Hawiye ancestor is Samaale/Samaalo and not Zumali. No Hawiye elder ever use such word this terminology it only comes from the North Somalia clans and not Hawiye clan or nation if you ae Somali you know this.

Hawiye people are proud and don't hide their ancestry roots. The Hawiye ancestor Samaale/Samaalo and Hawiye are both related to the great people of Galla and oromo, Not only they where once a same people who split but also Samaale/Samaalo and his sons Hawiye him self and his sons Karanle, Gorgarte, Jenbeele Murale and so on all have names that have meaning in Galla Oromo Rendili Languages. Ask Galla and Oromo and Rindile what are the meaning of these words and they will all proudly tell you what it means in their own languages.

Do not write other people History and origin and link to the great Hawiye people who are Proud who they are and where they came from so kindly Remove it and leave it as Irir Samaale just the way it was.

The Survey you cited have no evidence that any Hawiye person was involved, and you cannot use non Hawiye survey to hawiye people, This is false and mainly other peoples survey not related to the Hawiye people and Hawiye History and their Origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 12 August 2011

Moved from subsequent section

(As this is part of the same discussion it really belongs in this section. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC))

If Ram Nag, the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi, are of unknown origin, but probably Arabians who landed at Zeila. then say it so but you and I and every one else knows he is not Hawiye great great grand father, there fore i still kindly advise you to Remove it.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.30.45.98 (talk) 22:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you meant to place this in the previous section? Actually, I didn't know that he is or is not Hawiye's ancestor. That's the point of verifiability. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

If you dont know then why argue whit me? , we Hawiye people know it and you should not cite non hawiye history to hawiye and refuce to delete and still argue whit us.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 07:51, 12 August 2011

Please see WP:IKNOW, and if you haven't already, WP:V (which starts by saying: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."). Thanks. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

All the citing and Survey you listed said Ram Nag is the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi, This has nothing to do whit Hawiye, the survey is British Somali-land, Again Nothing to do whit hawiye, Misleading people, that a survey took place that said Hawiye great great grand father is Rag nag and placing same one else History and Origin to Hawiye is not acceptable and should be removed Immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The source mentions Dir and Hawiye were brothers, thus they would have the same great-grandfather. And the text in question has already been re-worded to specify that this is all according to a military survey. Again, though, I.M. Lewis mentions Ram Nag as well. Can you provide a reliable source, other than your personal knowledge, that refutes both Hunt and Lewis, and/or supports a different genealogy? If not, I don't think we are going to get much further with this, though you might consider Wikipedia:Requests for comment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:29, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Why do I have to supply reliable source ? When you the one who make the change and Introduced Non Hawiye to hawiye History and cited unreliable source " The British Somalialad Military Survey " Hawiye have nothing to do , no evidence such survey took place in Hawiye territory.

The Military Survey is not Hawiye survey, You have no Evidence any hawiye involvement in the British Military survey therefore you cant use non-Hawiye survey to Hawiye History and origin full stop. show me the source ? or simply remove it you should not even question me that and remove it immediately before we even go further.

Ram nag is Dir's ancestor and not Hawiye, place that history where it belongs to "the Dir clan".

Both Hunt and Lewis clearly said Ram Nag the great great father of Dir Samaroon of unknown origin. This is NOT RELATED to HAWIYE there fore you should not mislead PEOPLE Remove it Immediately.

Are Dir and Hawiye a biological brother ? or alliance brotherhood ? This is Totally another topic Even DIR it self don't have same ancestor according to your own wiki citing the Issa clan, therefore i ask you to Remove it Immediately. Do not Place Dir's history to Hawiye people.

The only way we can rest this dispute is two option.

1. Remove it or

2. State the facts as its written in the books and not a twisted word that are misleading.

Here is Facts are quote and quote " according to Survey by the colonial administration in British Somaliland, Ram Nag,is said to be the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi. full stop.

Hawiye and Dir are said to be brothers.

you ether remove, or simply state that facts and we done.

You asked, "Why do I have to supply reliable source?" That's Wikipedia policy, that's how things work around here. So, again, can you provide a reliable source, other than your personal knowledge, that refutes both Hunt and Lewis, and/or supports a different genealogy? For the record, I'm not the one who added the information in the first place. As for the full quote, I did put that in the citation and it is visible down in the "References" section. I'm not sure if there's a way to directly put it in the text without making it look clumsy. Perhaps re-word as follows: "Hawiya Irrir is held to be the brother of Dir, himself the great-grandson of Ram Nag" (I underlined the new part). Otherwise, once again, you might consider Wikipedia:Requests for comment and try and get someone else's opinion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

P.S. The context of the sentence is mentioning great-grandfathers, uncles, etc. so I can only deduce that its author meant "brother" in the biological sense. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:00, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

As you can see, I am new here, and thanks for info, i need your help to request Wikipedia:Requests for comment on behalf of me Wikipedia:Requests for comment to re-word as : "Hawiya Irrir Samaale is held to be the brother of Dir, himself the great-grandson of Ram Nag" for the time been, if you cannot remove it as, Its not directly related to Hawiye.

Thank you once again — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 03:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC) We are waiting, your replay? can you request Wikipedia:Requests for comment on behalf of me and the Hawiye elders that are whit me? the person who put Dir History to Hawiye have to take it out they have no evidence any hawiye in the history linked hawiye to rag nag. Hawiye are not related to rag nag and have nothing to do, please take that history where it belong to. you cannot forcibly link same one tto another person they have nothing to do whit it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Whoever added the content cited two sources to support it, and another editor has provided a third. Can you offer any source that refutes Hunt, Lewis, and Hassan Ali Jama; and/or supports a different genealogy? In the meantime, I'm updating the text to use the wording that I suggested (diff). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hassan Ali Jama is Darod very well known Hawiye hater,who is been writing all over the internet, its very much the guy who wrote Hawiye is " abgaal habargidir" the rest are not related to hawiye, now he realised " Hawiye Girgarte the father of abgaal habargidr' Jambeele, Gugundhabe and all the direct six sons of hawiye and hawiye him self allhave Oromo names and all related so this is why he started the Ram nag story of Dir to hawiye.

Hunt, Lewis both clearly said Ram Nag, the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone find me where they said Hawiye ? therefore you cannot use citing that are not hawiye, and and place Dirs History to hawiye.

We already provide you tons of Irir samaale citing and that is why it stayed that way, so why change? and add Dir granfather to Hawiye and Mislead people? even the wording is wrong.

Dirs ancestor is Aji and great great grand father of Ram nag

Hawiye is Irir Samaale.

Here you can see book citing mixing up all even digil mirifle and sab in clan three that does not exist. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eK6SBJIckIsC&pg=PA12&dq=hawiye+irir+samaale&hl=en&ei=gDBJToOHC47RrQftrMGMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hawiye%20irir%20samaale&f=false

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=IPbZAAAAMAAJ&q=hawiye+irir+samaale&dq=hawiye+irir+samaale&hl=en&ei=gDBJToOHC47RrQftrMGMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA

Hawiye have nothing to do whit Ram nag even if Darods you support and you self keep posting stuff on wiki and other places. Hawiye is Hawiye and related to the great people of Galla and Oromo.

Unless I have missed something, these are the first two reliable sources you have provided (other than, the Herbert Lewis source, to which Middayexpress already responded, and your own personal knowledge). I think these could certainly be cited in the article, although I don't see how they refute the existing sources (just as the existing sources do not refute these, either). In both cases they point to an Arabian ancestor. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Do my source say ram nag? Irir samaale is the olderst known hawiye ancesstor ever recorded so please dont play games on me so take it out simple is that. Hawiye is not DIR you citing Dir and posting to hawiye is all wrong. and dont start another topic of this Arab thing. the whole arab is the idea of the darod and same dir, we hawiye cannot forcibly be who they are. Hawiye know who they are, the oldest knonw Hawiye ancestor is Irir samaale, so please take it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hawiye have nothing to do whit Ram nag. please take it out and put that History where it belongs to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Gyrofrog thanks for fixing it. even thou we would love to see it removed but much appropriated for the wording. From the Hawiye elders. Geele, Sadaq Ali Hashi and Oday Dheere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Digil and Mirifle Clans

Digil and Mirifle clans who inhabit most of the Southern portion of Somalia are considered to be the largest clan all over Somalia. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 203.135.0.66 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reference for it somewhere? Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Digil and Mirifle clans (sometimes collectively known as Rahawein) are the largest clans in Somalia. They inhabit the southern portion of the Somali penninsula. They are about 25% of the Somali population of 10 million people. Generally, they are very peaceful people. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 203.135.0.66 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, a reference would be helpful. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Population estimates

An anonymous editor had added the following:

"The Hawiye population in east Africa is viewed on the whole 6-8 million people, 1.3 million in Somalia capital Mogadishu."

This really needs to cite a reference. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Darood is the largest

Darood is the largest Somali clan, however Hawiye is the biggest INSIDE Somalia. The Darood Subclan of Ogaden is probably bigger than half of Hawiye combined. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.152.13.117 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be more helpful if you could cite a reliable source for this information. Also, I'm not sure what you mean in your second sentence; combined with what? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

According to U.S. Department of Justice report "Hawiye (part of the Irir clan family) is probably the largest clan within Somalia, while Darood is the largest clan among all Somalis across borders."

Darood is the largest and geographically most widely distributed clan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Libanguled (talk • contribs) 23:32, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

References

Not at all. Hawiye are majority in Somalia as well as NFD and also have a huge population in Ethiopia. Land does not mean size, and in Darood’s case, your land is dry while our is fertile making more space for humans. Raagacelle (talk) 22:47, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup

As with other articles regarding Somali clans, the list of subclans is becoming quite lengthy. Can all of these be considered major subclans? I think there should also be some actual threshold of notability for inclusion under "Notable Hawiye people." For one, I have deleted the name of a mayor. Unless this person is a notable mayor, or it's a particularly notable town, I don't think this warrants inclusion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Disputed

Apparently, Sheikhaal may or may not be a Hawiye subclan. This seems to be in dispute so I have tagged the listing accordingly . -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up Tag could be removed

The information about the Hawiye subclans is now referenced and reliable, so the clean up tag could be removed. S710 08:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've gone further and used footnotes. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Abdullahi Isse

When reverting this article today I noticed that under "Notable Hawiye persons" it says Abdullahi Isse was UN Prime Minister. Now based on the info at List of notable Somali leaders, Somalia, here and here it looks as if there are two errors. It would appear that his name is Abdullahi Issa (with an "a") and he was the Somali Prime Minister "under the United Nations Trusteeship Administration". The way the sentence is now it makes it appear that Abdullahi Isse was Prime Minister of the United Nations and of course there is no such position. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 15:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Reference needs source

I've removed the following reference because the source is unknown:

• Somalia Tribal Study, 2005, [13]

The URL is, apparently, for a hosting service, and the document itself does not identify its own author(s) nor publisher. I suspect it is a government document as it says "Unclassified" but a Google search doesn't provide any clues. We need to know the source in order to consider this a verifiable reference. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Refence has a source

The source of the reference is known. It is this document called Tribal Study. The author and publisher are not known, that another matter. There is often valuable information coming from anonymous authors (take Wikipedia for instance). That does not mean that the facts in this document are not verifiable. I would regret it very much if you leave this reference out. It is the only source that gives a survey of the different subdivions that are made of the same clans in different regions of Somalia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S710 (talk • contribs)

Sheekhaal Dispute

There is a major dispute whether Sheekhaal clan is part of larger Hawiye clan.

It is proven and well known among those who are well acquainted with the lineage of the Sheekhaal people that the Sheekhaal (also pronounced Sheekhaash) clan is a free standing tribe and not part of the Hawiye clan. People from the Sheekhaal clan originate from the Somali galbeed region (Somali Region of Ethiopia) but have dispersed all throughout Somalia due to the fact that their early forefathers were considered scholars of the Islamic faith. The confusion of some Sheekhaal people (namely some of the Looboge subclan) claiming to be Hawiye comes from when the members of this subclan migrated to the Hawiye region and sought acceptance from Hawiye by assuring them that they were a subclan from the Hawiye clan. Although insincere in action, it was simply a method of surviving in a foreign land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheekhaashiyyah (talk • contribs) 15:31, 14 August 2014

Comparison of clan size

In this article Wikipedia gives the basic facts about the Hawiye. If you have reliable facts about the numbers of the different clans, they could also be in the articles. The proper place to compare those numbers (if we had them) would be in the article Somali clan or Somalia. But without precise numbers (plus or minus 50.000) it is meaningless to state that the Hawiye is the largest clan. The article now refers to a source (for this topic of size) that is older than five years old. That is completely out of date. The only other source is the CIA-factbook. That source is not of any use either because it does not give its definitions of the clans (which clans are counted as being Hawiye or Rahanweyn or Isaaq). Depending on those definitions you get a completely different number. The information is referenced but dubious. That's why I thought it better to leave it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S710 (talk • contribs)

Population of Somalia

Within the past day or so, the population of Somalia purported to belong to the Hawiye clan has been changed from 25% to 45% then 40%. This map indicates 25% so in the absence of another verifiable source I will change it back to that figure. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:15, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

that 25% is for the whole Somali population and not just for Somalia which is around 40% ??. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.69.10 (talk) 01:29, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Population number is to high

I just found out that I'm Hawiye. I don't know whether that is cool or not considering that we are leading the resistance. But I don't think the numbers is correct. The mainpage is saying that there are 10 million Somalis in Somalia the country with the largest number of Somalis in the world. Thats including Arabs,other Africans and Europeans who live there. Should i change it to unknown? Furious Stormrage (talk) 17:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Sub-clan listings

I have trimmed the "Sub-clan listing" section, and changed it to "Clan tree". The idea is to keep this kind of list manageable. In this case, I have shown the clans one level down or one level up from this one. See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Clan lineage. The other section, "Sons of Hawiye Irir", I am not sure about because the attributed source is not available to me. I have a feeling that the current listing does not match (i.e., is longer) than what is presented in the source. I am going to tag the source as needing verification, but in any event, I think this list should be pared down (one level up, one level down) like I did with the other section. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC) Gaaljecel

 Gaaljecel Has Seven sons :
     * Barsane(SOmalia) 
     *Sooraanle(Somalia)
     * Saalax(Ethiopia)
     * Sabriye(Ethiopia)
     * Barkhadle(Brunidi)
     *Suleymaan(Brundi)
     * Subcis (Kenya)
  ***** Barsane  **** Sooraanle 
                  * Dirisame     * Doorwaaq 
                                                                                                    
                                       *Abtisame    ** Mulaah   **Luhube

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.208.25.141 (talk • contribs) 05:17, 4 January 2012

Murusade

• Murusade
  • Sabti
    • Cabdalle
    • Habar-Idinle

 *Ayaansame,subclans

• Gumcadle
• Dumaal
• Geedi
• Xassangedef
• Odagaab
  • • Abakar

       subclans

• israfiil
• maxamuud codweyne
• Xussen codweyne
• siciidabakar
• • Foolculus
    • HabarCeyne
    • Hilibi
    • Daguuro

maxamed 23:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Burtugey (talk • contribs)

are the warsangelis darood or hawiye?

warsangelis are NOT hawiye, they are darood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.143.247 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 5 August 2010

[Baadicade]

• • • Afgaab
    • Suber
    • Maamiye
    • Cadowyar
    • Ilaabe
    • Ibrahim baadicade
    • carayahan
    • Quuriwaaye
    • Samarob
    • Haamud —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.62.85.169 (talk) 10:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

jijeele

Jijeele is a somali clan and part of the major Hawiye clan. Its members live in the regions of Central and southern Somalia ethiopia, and kenya.

Overview

Jijeele is one subclan of the gugundhabe family, which also includes the baadicade, jidle, 1- Reer faqay 2- Yaaquub 3- Reer Wanad 4- Guudway 5- Cabdi iidsuge 6- Habar wadaag 7- Dumaal 8- Dharooye 9- Shalashame 10- Faranjecle 11- Kulmiye 12- Ciise 13- Idiriis 14- Baaroow

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.73.3.177 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 11 October 2010

RfC: Ram Nag

Please change the wording that Hawiya Irrir is held to be the great-grandson of Ram Nag"

Dispute, Hawiye have nothing to do whit Ram nag. Ram Nag, is the great-grandfather of Dir, and Samarone the patriarch of the Gadabursi clan and not Hawiye.

The person who edited cited are misleading information, Dir, Samarone Clan is not Hawiye clan and you canot place once history to another.

Hawiye elders requested Ram nag to be removed, but since we dispute its advised the wording to be changed in the until we remove Ram Nag from Hawiye totally since Its not related to Hawiye people.

Read here more to understand the situation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hawiye

Please change the wording from Please change the wording that " Hawiya Irrir is held to be the great-grandson of Ram Nag"

to

"Hawiya Irrir Samaale is held to be the brother of Dir, himself the great-grandson of Ram Nag"

Dir and Hawiye know they are not biological brothers but clan relationship brother hood. please remove Dir History from Hawiye.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geele123 (talk • contribs) 14:32, 15 August 2011

• Comment: See #Ram Nag for current discussion. I will attempt to make this more succinct. The article currently cites three sources concerning Hawiye's (purported) relationship to Ram Nag. The person submitting the RfC doubts the veracity of this information and has requested that it be removed, and/or reworded. Note that I have already completed the re-wording (diff). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Question - I see that the purported relationship to Ram Nag appears to be supported by a couple of reliable sources. The originator of the RfC wants it removed, and in the discussion above in the Talk page (before the RfC) cites a blog. On the face of it, the purported relationship should stay in the article, based on the sources. However, before I render an opinion, I'm curious to know if there is any political background here ... sometimes that can shed some light on the sources & reliability. Is there some "my clan is more ancient than your clan" rivalry behind all this? (I mean no disrespect to Somalis: I'm just using humorous jargon to give and example of how the politics may be involved). If there is no subtle politics involved, I would support inclusion of the purported relationship, based on the sources I see. --Noleander (talk) 22:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Noleander, in the 6 years that I've been watching Category:Somali clans articles, I've seen numerous edits like this one and this. Also, here is one explanation that another Wikipedian offered (although, obviously, that is just one person's opinion). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so it looks like there is some pride underlying all this: whose clan is largest or most important. I suppose that doesn't directly affect this RfC, since WP has to reflect what the reliable sources say. WP:Truth and all that. Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 15:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• Keep amended material - The sources support keeping the wording "According to an official Military Survey conducted during the colonial period, Hawiye clan members are by tradition believed to be descended from a forefather named Hawiya Irrir. Hawiya Irrir is held to be the brother of Dir, himself the great-grandson of Ram Nag, an Arab migrant who landed in Zeila on the northwestern Somali coast.". The sentence immediately following that one ("However ...") already qualifies the observation as uncertain. If other sources can be found that contain yet more alternative views, those can also be included in that paragraph, so readers get the full range of viewpoints. --Noleander (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

top of mudulood learders

adana cade= ciisa mudulood, axmedfiqi= harti abgaal, cali mahdi= harti abgaal, cali gedi=harti abgaal, xuseeyn kulmiye= waceesle, nuur cade wacbuudhan, shiikh shariif= harti abgaal, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xoogsade 1 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Hawiye in Puntland

Hawiye do not live in Puntland. If you look at the sources from the Puntland Wikipedia article, you see that Puntland is inhabited by Harti, Leelkase and Meheri People. Hawiye live in a city called Gaalkacyo, divided up between the Northern Puntland and Southern Galmudug. http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTSOMALIA/Resources/conflictinsomalia.pdf 26oo (talk) 05:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The source in the article which is the same pdf as the one above quite clearly says Puntland. You need to find a source that says they don't live there. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Here are several sources including one from the Library of Congress.. The Darood clan lives in the Northern regions.. This source shows you that the Majeerteen sub-clan of Harti which itself is a sub-clan of Darood controls Puntland State. 26oo (talk) 06:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You need to make the talk page references visible which I've done. If you remove the reference in the article then you need then you have to remove the clan listing as well. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 31 March 2012

41.138.10.124 (talk) 03:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC) jijeele

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed.   — Jess· Δ♥ 05:40, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Notable Hawiye figures

The "Notable Hawiye figures" section includes individuals whose respective articles don't even mention affiliation, or don't provide a source. This first came up at Isaaq, and after cleaning up that article I was accused of bias for not addressing other Somali clan articles. Fair enough. WP:Source list definitely applies in these cases, and WP:BLP applies for many of them. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

== Hawadle ==

Dige Samatalis, Cabdalle Samatalis, Faramage Samatalis (Reer Ugaas), Abdi Yusuf Samatalis

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 23:14, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

• Please also provide a source for any additions or changes. See WP:Source list and previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Clan lineage. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:21, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2014

1. Mohamed hassan

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 16:17, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2015

70.39.184.219 (talk) 13:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:51, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Hawiye is largest within somalia but Darood is largest across borders

The CIA and Human Rights Watch report says Hawiye is somali largest clan in Somalia only but not in Ethiopia and Kenya. Darod is the largest somali clan across borders according to U.S. Department of Justice report "Hawiye (part of the Irir clan family) is probably the largest clan within Somalia, while Darood is the largest clan among all Somalis across borders."

The book Commerce Raiding: Historical Case Studies, 1755-2009 edited by Bruce A. Elleman, Naval War College on page 260 and University of Texas map indicate Darood is the largest and geographically most widely distributed clan.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Libanguled (talk • contribs) 23:09, 22 June 2016 (UTC) 

References

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2017

AwAqoonyahan (talk) 19:39, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Murusade needs its own page, if 'murusade' is searched on wikipedia, it is automatically referred to the hawiye page.

 Not done as that is not a semi-protected edit request, which is to ask for an amendment to this page.
There was a page for Murusade until October 2009, when it was redirected here due to the large overlap and a lack of references - if you want to start such an article please use WP:Articles for creation - Arjayay (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Hawiye

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Hawiye's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Lee V. Cassanelli 1982":

• From Hobyo: Lee V. Cassanelli, The shaping of Somali society, Philadelphia, 1982.
• From Habar Gidir: Lee V. Cassanelli, The shaping of Somali society., Philadelphia, 1982,

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:34, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the practice of "primae noctis"

I have read the primary sources for the statement of "At the end of the 17th century, the Ajuran Empire was on its decline due to high taxation on none-Ajuran clans and the practice of primae noctis which was the prime reason why the Hawiye clan revolted against the Ajuran rulers and ever since this first revolt against the Ajuran other groups would follow in the rebellion which would eventually bring down Ajuran rule of the inter-riverine region"

And it says no such thing, might consider an edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.219.178.75 (talk) 03:43, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

/* Murule */

Murule is a clan under Jidle Gugundhabe Hawiye Irir Samaale (Somali) such that the ancestry is like this:

SAMALE IRI HAWIYE GUGUNDHABE JIDLE MURULE

I don't see it listed under Hawiye clans...why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalahow (talk • contribs) 14:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2021

Abdiaziz Ali Farah- former mandera east member of parliament 2013- 2017. East African parliament nominee 2018. Current commissioner of national cohesion and integration commission since 2019. 41.81.76.17 (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 21:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2021

Historiantruth (talk) 02:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey, as a Hawiye person I’m slightly disappointed by false claims on Hawiye lineage. On top of that edit buttons are privatised. So that actual Hawiyes can not edit. Hawiye are not descendants of abu talib, and had i have the privilege to edit private ones i would proudly link real sources etc

 Not done for now: Feel free to link to those sources here and reopen the request at that time Cannolis (talk) 03:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2022

I would like to add a sub-clan of Hawiye called baadicade as a sub-page under Hawiye page. NouhAbukar (talk) 20:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Hawiye

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Hawiye's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "books.google.com":

• From Google Books: Google Books History – Google Books. Archived from the original on 2016-02-06. Retrieved 2016-02-22.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: unfit URL (link)
• From Dir (clan): Lewis, I. M. (2017-02-03). Peoples of the Horn of Africa (Somali, Afar and Saho): North Eastern Africa Part I. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-315-30817-3.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 14:11, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2022

ku dar beesha hilibi darandoole hawiye Somaliwyne (talk) 05:25, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ji11720 (talk) 12:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2023

Mr Honest Ali (talk) 20:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Mudulood Hiraab Maxamed Mudulood Ciise Mudulood Wacweyteen Mudulood Daaro Mudulood Dalandoolle Mudulood Hillibi Dalandoolle Cismaan Dalandoolle Moobleen Cismaan Wacdaan Cismaan Hillaaway Cismaan Abgaal (Cali) Cismaan

 Harti :-

Warsangali Agoonyar Owbakar Ciise Cabdalle cartoons Nigaal Cartoons

Wacbuudhan :- Daauud Kabaale Galmaax

Warculus:- Haaruun Cabdiraxmaan saleebaan Cali gaaf Macallin dhiblaabe Dhagaweyne Absuge Jibraail Faqay

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

This is the English language Wikipedia. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Mr Honest Ali (talk) 22:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Mudulood Mohamed Mudulood Ciise Mudulood Wacweyteen Mudulood Dalandoolle Mudulood

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 22:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2023

In the Clan Tree section, Haaruun(Curudka) is missing from Waceysle Darandole Mudulood Hiraab Gorgaarte Hawiye please update the list 154.118.243.82 (talk) 07:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done please provide a reliable source that supports the change you want made Rehsarb (talk) 14:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Here's the profile of Waceysle = https://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person=19193.

Here's the profile for Haarun Waceysle = https://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person=19200

I would also suggest the name be listed as "Haarun (Curudka)" since i wrote "HAARUUN" in the initial request. 154.118.243.82 (talk) 07:26, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: abtirsi.com is a forum-like self-published source, so it is considered generally unreliable per WP:UGC. Also see this discussion. Please provide a different source. Liu1126 (talk) 21:41, 30 December 2023 (UTC)