Talk:Halil Kut

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Hold on... So he was Enver Pasha's uncle.. Yet they were born on the same day?

Redirect Issue

Why Halil Pasha redirects only to this article without disambiguation notice?
Çandarlı Halil Pasha is also refereed to as Halil Pasha (Critical M104 (talk) 00:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC))

His name

The title of the article is "Halil Kut", but we refer to him as "Halil Pasha". The Pasha article indicates that this indicates a rank, and the Turkish name article indicates that at this time Turkish citizens did not use surnames, so presumably Halil and Kut are both given names. Would Kut have been his father's name?

However, he was the victor of the Siege of Kut. Is it a coincidence that this is one of his names? Did he take this name after his victory there? Verbcatcher (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Problem With Reference

Based on a single reference (2), Halil Kut was declared to be "mainly responsible" for the mass deportations during WWI. The reference itself is a general book and not clear if it even mentions Halil Pasa by name. I would like to see the actual reference, maybe a few more highlighting his role and alleged responsibilities in these events. I have actually studied his life a little, and he has a mostly pure military career, spent mostly in the fronts and was not political like his infamous uncle. It seems inappropriate that the article opens with this dubious claim. Unless this is cleared up in a while, I will make the necessary edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hudavendigar (talk • contribs) (this editor's post was made on 14 July 2018)

Quote attributed to Halil Pasa

I noticed that the quote that is supposedly attributed to Halil Pasa is not transcribed correctly, and only half the sentence seems to be quoted. If not corrected, it will be removed. Clearly Halil Pasa refers to his experiences in the Caucuses Front fighting Russians and Armenian insurgents fighting along them. He did not spend even a year in the area before being rushed to Mesopotamia. If someone can not find a specific reference and instance of his involvement in Tehcir, I will be forced to remove this whole paragraph which seems to create the impression he had a leading role in evacuating Armenians from Russian front. Murat (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

It is not always necessary to give a quote in full, providing that the meaning is not misrepresented. If you can establish that is has been transcribed incorrectly then it would seem preferable to correct the transcription, or to add a footnote to indicate that the text is disputed, or to use the {{Disputed inline}} template. I do not know the details of this history, but on a cursory inspection this article appears to be well-sourced, including to books published by major university presses. You are probably aware of the issue of Armenian Genocide denial, and many editors will view with suspicion any edits that appear to reflect this. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:39, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

It is of course necessary to be truthful and exact if one goes to the extent of quoting a whole paragraph's worth, in an article only a page long. It is a sign that there is another agenda. None of the sources are primary, and there is no source that clearly indicates what this "leading role" Halil Pasha played was? What role exactly? No information. Since the article opens up with this claim about this soldier who had such an eventful military career, one expects some more explanation than referencing seemingly partisan sources. This is about simple facts, not denial or acceptance of this or that opinion. Dropping lists of subjective publications does not cut it. Murat (talk) 01:13, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

The main sources are of high academic status: Ben Kiernan and Jay Winter are both professors at Yale University and their books are published by Cambridge University Press and Melbourne University Publishing. David Gaunt is a professor at Södertörn University in Sweden.[1] I see no reason to view these are 'partisan sources' or 'subjective publications'. Wikipedia is usually based on secondary sources and avoids the use of primary sources, see WP:PSTS. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

In that case, there should be no problem in actually quoting what "leading role" role Halil Pasha played. His alleged quote is incorrectly translated and out of context. What was his official role that is given such prominent place in this small article? Since I am questioning it, and claiming that he was not engaged in anything but military campaigns, it needs to be explained, not just point to some subjective sources which may or may not contain relevant info. How about one actual Ottoman source? If it can not be backed up, then clearly does not belong. Not that complicated really. Asking again, what was this "leading role"? Murat (talk) 13:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Memoirs

In the article there are several references to Halil Pasha's memoirs and one of them is a book written by Taylan Soygun as a Turk I have to inform you that it's an unreliable source for several reasons. First of all Taylan Sorgun is a journalist who has no academic background, second of all in the last two decades writting fake memoirs is a very popular trend among Turkish journalists. If you look online you could find examples such as "Memoirs of Sultan Abdulhamid". You can notice these fake memoirs by looking at the vocublary, Ottoman Era Turkish had lots of loan words and was written in Arabic alphabet. Nedim Sancar (talk) 17:42, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Reference Problems and Broad Brush

There are some very specific acts attributed to Halil Pasha all throughout the article. Needs to be supported by actual facts, not words from highly subjective sources. As mentioned before, he spent little time in Eastern Turkey but it is made to sound as if the whole burden of Tehcir and atrocities were his responsibility. Did someone see him shoot and kill civilians? Where are the orders he was supposed to have given? Copies, dates, to whom etc..

I have looked at the references, they do not seem to provide any specifics. None seem to present actual dates and documents. His biography indicate he was not in the vicinity of Van during the said events as this article claims. Maybe there was confusion about the Van Gendarme he was given in his fights against Russians and Armenian insurgents up north, near border. His harsh language concerning the Armenian insurgents he fought are presented as proof of his involvement in atrocities committed. In fact, language used makes it sound like he personally murdered civilians. Nothing of the kind ever documented. These mistakes need to be remedied. Murat (talk) 17:56, 23 April 2023 (UTC)