Talk:Gunpowder/Archive 17
 | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
Lesmok Semismokeless powder
The existing entry cites Lesmok as a mixture of nitrocellulose and black powder, but the sources cited make no mention of its actual composition: http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=glossary
However, this: https://books.google.com/books?id=SJYjP_tJ9_wC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false (pg 65) Mentions Lesmok ("Lesmoke" there) was a composition made of guncotton and black powder with the appearance of gray sand.
This https://books.google.com/books?id=yESNUKSg5aMC&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=lesmok+nitrated+wood+cellulose&source=bl&ots=ACzrWyZtdn&sig=ASzvO-8nOiOi0dk3ZtFcsNo3N0E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip2c2YjprfAhVij1QKHY33BwEQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=lesmok%20nitrated%20wood%20cellulose&f=false (pg 319) also says as much
But this: https://books.google.com/books?id=QzPPFNtwCxwC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false (pg 26)
Cites 'Lesmoke' as "60 percent potassium nitrate, 20 percent wood cellulose, 12 percent charcoal, and 8 percent sulfur" However, this seems likely to be in error and the 'wood cellulose' should be 'nitrated wood cellulose' as nitrated wood pulp appears to be the variety of nitrocellulose used in this application. (the use of nitrated wood pulp appears in several forum and message board discussions, but not in freely available or sampled archived texts I have seen online)
This composition would correspond to 80% normal black powder (of the common 75:15:10 proportions) with 20% nitrocellulose, or nitrated wood pulp (the latter may be an important distinction if it's not purified cellulose, but nitrated wood meal more similar to that used in Schultz powder, containing a good deal of nitrated or partially nitrated lignin and other wood components).
These likely have that information, but aren't available in ebook form: https://books.google.com/books?id=_hSMtwAACAAJ&dq=dupont+lesmok&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDg5TjkprfAhXTwcQHHUZJA-IQ6AEIKjAA
This thread has photographs depicting various examples of Lesmok and King's semismokeless powders:
http://dave2.freeshell.org/ammo/bp24/bp24.htm It also followed the 'wood cellulose' information rather than nitrated wood pulp.
However, it also cites 2.8 grains of Lesmok powder pulled from a .22LR cartridge compared to the 5 grains of black powder normally loaded in .22LR. That would further indicate the nitrated cellulose or wood pulp is more likely as simply adding cellulose (or starch, or another carbohydrate) to the composition should not significantly increase its energy content and since Lesmok ballistics were approximately the same as normal black powder loads, it would need to have more energy by weight.
Additionally, with that 2.8 grain vs 5g value, and considering Lesmoke is 80% black powder (2.24 grains), the smoke and fouling of Lesmok loads should be approximately 45% that of regular black powder (44.8% rounded to two significant figures)
While not cited sources, these threads do explicitly mention nitrocellulose or nitrated wood as well: https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/information-about-peters-25-short-stevens-box/11248/5 https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/semi-smokeless-powder-t19267.html https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372530
www.pyrobin.com/files/nc%2026%20manufacture%20nc%20ind.doc
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qyP--twFZeIJ:www.pyrobin.com/files/nc%252026%2520manufacture%2520nc%2520ind.doc+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
This lists: "Lesmok is a bulk rifle and shotgun powder manufactured by the E. I du Pont de Nemours Co., of Wilmington, Del., and is the culmination of an exhaustive series of experiments looking to the production of a powder best suited for .22‑caliber cartridges. This powder, which is black in color from contained charcoal, contains from 10‑20% nitrocellulose, and produces less smoke (less smoke) than similar powders, whence it derives its name. The manufacturers call attention to observations made with small bore rifles as .22‑cal., in which the best results are obtained from a powder that leaves a soft, moist, non‑acid residue, and but little of it, which residue should not cake in the rifling, so as to impair the accuracy of shooting. Their study showed that the residue apparently acted beneficially when it was not too great in amount; when it was soft, moist, and greasy; and when it did not cake in the grooves or burn into the barrel. It was also demonstrated that powders showing opposite characteristics to these, even when not sufficiently pronounced to prevent their successful use in rifles of larger caliber, give poor results in the .22.
This, then, is the general principle upon which Lesmok has been formulated. As illustrating to what extent the residue has been diminished and modified as to ability for use in the breech‑adapters with the .22 Springfield U. S. Government rifle, it is recalled that black powder cartridges soon foul the adapters to such an extent that they are useless until cleaned, whereas but little difficulty is experienced in this direction with Lesmok powder. The .22 Springfield, with its breech‑adapters, imposes a severe test upon the cleanliness of a powder."
Which indicates a range of 10 to 20% nitrocellulose. (though whether this is based on vague information available from Dupont, or possibly a reflection of the more vague nature of nitrated wood pulp rather than pure cellulose or cotton is unclear)
http://www.survivorlibrary.com/library/nitrocellulose-the_manufacture_of_nitrates_vol_2_1911.pdf
Pg 957
This appears to be the source of the above article, or shares a common source as the same paragraphs are included therein.
The 'bulk propellant' description also likely refers to the bulky, low density nature of it and relates to Schults style powders and similar ones by Dupont made by nitrated wood grains which are partially gellatinized and formed into fairly rigid, porous spheroidal grains. (a variety of 'bulk' shotgun and rifle powders by Dupont were available, either uncolored as an off white or tan color or dyed with bright coal-tar derivatives) This is mentioned in "The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives" by by Tenney L. Davis.
Also, not currently mentioned in the wikipedia article is the lower cost of lesmok compared to smokeless loads of the early 1900s. In Reminton catalogs, Lesmok loads were generally prices similarly to black powder loads, while smokeless was somewhat more expensive and (initially) also somewhat less powerful. (presumably due to the bulky powders used)
See: http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs/Remington
http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/REMINGTON/1911-12-REM-UMC-Retail%20Catalog.pdf (ballistics chart on page 182 of the catalog (pg 180 of the pdf)
.22 Long Rifle black powder is listed as 1103 fps vs 983 fps for smokeless, and the price of black or lesmok is listed in that and all the other catalogs of the period (but ballistics tables are absent until the 1933 catalog). Lesmok is also noted to be the default powder available and black powder loads are substituted upon request.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/REMINGTON/1933-REM%20ARMS-Retail%20Catalog.pdf
The only remaining .22lr load available by 1933 appears to be the 'Palma Match' ammunition (also more expensive as match grade ammo) with Remington Kleanbore smokeless loads being the standard. Palma Match ammunition is listed as 1070 fps in the chart on pg 13, the same velocity as normal 40 grain bullet smokeless loads at that point. (though slightly lower than the 1103 fps quoted for the older Black Powder load, though it also seems likely that the older Lesmok load matched the blackpowder ballistics given they were used interchangeably)
http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/REMINGTON/1941-Rem-DuPont-Dealer%20PL.pdf
The 1941 dealer price list also seems to be the last sales document in that archive to list Lesmok powder. (in the same Palma Match ammunition) Presumably, Lesmok was retained for that role due to superior accuracy for a time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kool kitty89 (talk • contribs) 12:07, 12 December 2018 (UTC)