Talk:Gojong's internal exile to the Russian legation

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Rename[edit]

This is poor english, this should be renamed KoreaN royal..... needs an N Ottawakismet (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. However, it seems that this 'bad name' has penetrated in the last few years into academia - I see a few books from 2019+ using it, including one published by Routledge ([1]), which just goes to show even academic books by major publishers can be quite poorly edited. Likewise, Google Scholar has a few hits, almost all from Korean scholars in their English abstracts (again, more evidence of machine/lazy translation in play). Earliest GScholar work using this term is from 2013 ([2]), and the only one published in international-level journal is [3] (the author is Korean too). Now, this article (and title) date to 2006 (creation by User:Joyoon, not active anymore, but whose username likely implies they are Korean).

Now, the "Agwan Pacheon" name is not English but it has been used in English scholarly literature for decades (see Google Books, Google Scholar, and predates this Wiki-invented English name.

I am having trouble understanding 俄館播遷, Google translate gives me 'Russian pavilion relocation' (Chinese reading) or 'Korea royal refuge' (Japanese reading). Most sources don't provide translation or use the Wikipedia version. Rare exceptions: [4] which gives "Korean Emperor refuge at the Russian Legation", [5] "king Gojong to take refuge at the Russian legation in 1896", [6] "when king Gojong hide to Russian Embassy".

Update: I got this from a Korean friend:

아관파천(俄館播遷) agwanpacheon

A '아(俄)' : Russia : Chinese characters for Russia

Kwan '관(館)' : house, residence

Pacheon '(播遷)' : the king leaves the city to avoid riots

So the grammatically correct translation would likely be "Royal asylum at Russian legation", although I am still not sure the term asylum is best. And of course the adjective "Korean" is a wiki-invention.

Bottom line, this incident is not consistently translated to English, and instead the Korean (Korean-Chinese? Hanja?) name is often used. So I'd suggest renaming the article to Agwan Pacheon or Agwan Pacheon incident (this wording is for example used here: "Russia which had strengthened its hold over the court after the Agwan pacheon incident" and here "The Agwan Pacheon incident, when King Gojong of Joseon dynasty and his crown prince left the Gyeongbokgung palace to take refuge at the Russian legation in Seoul in February 1896"). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 June 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Korea royal refuge at the Russian legation be renamed and moved to Agwan Pacheon incident.

result:
Moved. See evidence below that the current title needs to be changed; however, see no particular agreement as to which title is best. So under WP:OTHEROPTIONS the closer picks a title that will hopefully serve as a stable title for this article. This article will be moved to Gojong's internal exile to the Russian legation, chosen as a most precise common name purportedly found in books. In accord with the Other-options guide, if anyone objects to this choice, then they should simply make another move request at any time. Kudos to both editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 05:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Korea royal refuge at the Russian legation → Agwan Pacheon incident – Per the discussion above, the current name is an Engrishy wiki invention. English sources commonly use the Korean name Agwan Pacheon, and some use Agwan Pacheon incident which seems the best (as it gives a bit of the context in the title). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are we sure that 俄館播遷 is understandable to most English readers? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the fact that the current title is in bad English isn't sufficient justification for a title that depends on the knowledge of these days increasingly classical Korean hanja. There are various better options: King Gojong's flight to the Russian Legation, King Gojong's refuge at the Russian Legation, these are both found in books. So are Gojong's internal exile to the Russian legation, Gojong's stay in the Russian legation In ictu oculi (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And how do you propose we chose 'the right English translation'? Keeping the bad English translation is the worst possible outcome. Agwan Pacheon incident will be understandable and meaningful no less than the Roswell incident, Amethyst Incident, Mukden Incident, Tapani incident, Kaohsiung Incident, Rendlesham Forest incident, Dogger Bank incident and so on (i.e. a random adjective incident type of a name). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who said "right", multiple redirects solve that problem. We just choose something good enough. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:17, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.