Talk:Ghar Wapsi

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Article title[edit]

Personally, I feel that this should be moved to the equivalent English title; its Hindi title doesn't seem to be so specific, or so widely in use, that its use becomes necessary. The sources I've seen all translate it as "reconversion" or something very similar; I believe we should do the same. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I agree. 646,000 Google hits. That is wide spread enough. The purpose of this article is that, if somebody reads a news article about "ghar wapsi" and googles the term to find out what it is all about, they end up here. I hope we can provide enough information to quench their thirst for knowledge. Kautilya3 (talk) 16:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, but that could probably be taken care of with redirects and/or alternative names in the first sentence, right? I'm just generally not a fan of using non-english titles on the English 'pedia, and this seems a non-essential use; but I'm not terribly hung up on it. There might also be some POV issues here, there's not going to be a neutral title for this page.....Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: and @Kautilya3: I'm also wondering about the title. Is "Ghar Wapsi" synonymous with "conversion to Hinduism in India"? If so, I think the English title will be clearer. If the two are not synonymous then I don't think it should be moved, but it should be made clearer how the two are different. VR talk 18:13, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Vice regent: I don't think they're synonyms. "Ghar Wapsi" is a WP:COMMONNAME, since that's the term used by significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources concerning the subject. WikiLinuz🍁(talk) 20:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I looked a little into scholarly sources and I found definitions and descriptions of "ghar wapsi" to be negative:
  • Ghar Wapsi is a Hindi term, usually translating as “homecoming” or “coming home”, which seeks to describe the arguably coerced mass conversions arranged by Hindu nationalist organizations of Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or other Indians to Hinduism. [1]
  • the Hindutva drive to "reconvert" Muslims and Christians to Hinduism is essentially about shoring up the numerical strength and political power of the "Hindu community" and has little connection to religious persuasion. [2]
  • Shuddhi should also not be confused with the present ghar wapsi (return to the Hindu fold), which is nothing but political hooliganism by another name. page 54
  • Ghar wapsi campaigns target the “destitute” and “are almost always group conversions and not about individuals making choices,” observes the political scientist Manjari Katju. page 152
Would it be reasonable to say that "ghar wapsi" is a subset of "conversion to Hinduism"? If so, it might be better to have a broader scope article on "conversion to Hinduism" that includes individual conversions (out of conviction) and make "ghar wapsi" a subsection in that article. I'm just reading up on this subject now, so apologies for any mistakes.VR talk 21:41, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be reasonable to say that "ghar wapsi" is a subset of "conversion to Hinduism"? - "Ghar Wapsi" is more than a mere "conversion to Hinduism (or Sikhism)", and it's more of a Hindutva crusade in the Indian context. So I believe this subject should be handled in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. [...] it might be better to have a broader scope article [...] subsection in that article - I guess we could add individual conversions into "conversion to Hinduism", but "ghar wapsi" would scrupulously fit into Hindu nationalism, so we shall wait for other editors' stances. WikiLinuz🍁(talk) 22:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The title should be more clearer for the readers. This term 'Ghar Wapsi' makes little sense to people outside Indian sub-continet. When I searched for it in Google, this is the first link[3] I found and here 'Ghar Wapsi' is referred to the end of farmer's protest and returning home. So, it is really necessary to distinguish the term for non-Hindi readers or for those who are not familiar of the Hindutva crusade in the Indian context. --Bringtar (talk) 07:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In answer to Vice regent's question, no, Ghar Wapsi is not synonymous with conversion to Hinduism. Only the Sangh Parivar's programme of conversion is called Ghar Wapsi. If people don't understand what it means, they should be able to read the article to understand it. Our objective should be improving the article rather than quibbling about the title. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know I initiated this conversation a while ago, but I don't think a title change is warranted. The phenomenon is a very narrow subset of conversion to Hinduism. The Hindi term is used almost universally in reliable sources; I don't think translating it is helpful here, per COMMONNAME. My personal preference would be for an English title; but the English language sources don't supply us with one. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:54, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone for their responses. So what determines the criteria for including a conversion in this article? Should the source explicitly mention "Sangh Parivar" or another Hindutva group as responsible for the conversion? VR talk 03:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the source uses "Ghar Wapsi" [4] then it is perfectly fine here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, Rizvi/Tyagi denies it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:33, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can we really trust op-eds to use the term "ghar wapsi" in the correct sense? What if a source uses ghar wapsi to refer to a conversion that seems to have nothing to do with Sangh Parivar? Was Rizvi/Tyagi's conversion a part of Sangh Parivar's programme? VR talk 01:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources[edit]

Firstpost.com is not quite a neutral source (and I have some doubts over its reliability, too), so when presenting analysis from them, we need to be careful that it does, in fact, represent the majority opinion; alternatively, we have to attribute it. indiankanoon.com is a WP:PRIMARY source; we cannot interpret it ourselves, especially since it doesn't quite support the statement in question. It only guarantees "freedom to propagate;" as the author of the firstpost article himself says, Ghar Wapsi falls into a slightly different category, since Hindus are doctrinally forbidden from proselytizing. All in all, we need better sourcing here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Firstpost has both news items and opinion pieces. This particular article was an opinion piece by R. Jagannathan, the Editor-in-Chief. I will a couple of articles in Further reading. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 16:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a source for this supposed doctrinal prohibition of proselytizing? If Hinduism didn't proselytize, how did it spread throughout the subcontinent and to a good part of Southeast Asia? How did it assimilate all the Scythians and Huns that settled in India? Or the Indian Buddhists for that matter? Kautilya3 (talk) 23:23, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion[edit]

This page should not be speedily deleted because... there are plenty of reliable sources dealing with the topic. --Kautilya3 (talk) 11:43, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is a notable subject, and has got wide media coverage so far. So, no question of deletion. -AsceticRosé 16:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits[edit]

If we wish to present "Ghar Wapsi" as the reconversion of "fraudulently" converted people, then we need sources describing it as such; moreover, sources numerous and weighty enough to negate the ones in the text. Vanamonde93 (talk) 14:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with User:Vanamonde93. -AsceticRosé 16:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ghar Wapsi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

origin of Wapsi[edit]

The revert in context is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ghar_Wapsi&type=revision&diff=837601741&oldid=837337785

I could not relate the given reference in the context. I think it may have been added by mistake. It is not related. The source neither mentions wapsi nor Persian origin. --G (talk) 04:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Second this. The linked dictionary page is not relevant here. Crawford88 (talk) 04:45, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

this edit is a misrepresentation of the sources, which very clearly refer to a subset of such conversions. The first only discusses Goan Christians; the second, "Many of those "targeted", which is still not good enough. Moreover, the TOI source is fairly clearly reporting the statements of an involved individual, rather than providing an independent assessment of whether the converts had Hindu ancestry. As such, neither is an acceptable source for the content they were being used for. Vanamonde (talk) 15:00, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is still a new word I would say. The word itself auto-magically implies the Hindu-ancestry as a justification for working with them to return to the fold of their ancestral faith (think of the English equivalent Home-Coming). There are several articles that bring out that meaning... of course it was said by someone or someone else and it is pretty likely that the person saying this supports the movement, obviously. Why would a non-involved (for or not-for) person comment about it? Like here, here and here. Anyway I was giving my two cents, I don't know why is Rioter 1 or you hung on this so much? --Gian ❯❯ Talk 15:39, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct in saying that a translation of the phrase Ghar Wapsi should rely on Hindi sources. The article, however, is about the phenomenon known by this neologism: the events that the RSS and its allies describe as "reconversions", a description which isn't accepted by most reliable sources. So the lead sentence isn't about defining a precise translation, but about precisely describing this phenomenon, for which the language of the source shouldn't matter very much. Vanamonde (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Let's hear from you as to what you would admit as a citation for this claim. I'll be happy to oblige. Rioter 1 (talk) 04:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A specific citation isn't going to cut it here; you need to show that the view you wish to add is the dominant view among reliable sources, which it isn't. The unreliability of your sources is also an issue which needed to be fixed, but there's problems besides that. Vanamonde (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism[edit]

Why aren't people adding any criticism to this program? The term itself is a misnomer.Moreover, many International sources have attributed Ghar Wapsi to increasing religious violence in India. Why are people deleting my comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannyboy2015 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You need to ensure that all of the content you add is explicitly supported by reliable sources, and that the way it is written conforms to our policy about maintaining a neutral point of view. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:48, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources? I gave you an Article from Library of Congress, showcasing USCIRF. USCIRF is not neutral? Mannyboy2015 (talk) 05:32, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That needs to go but in a far nuanced manner. I will try to rewrite the entire article over the course of today. ∯WBGconverse 11:40, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

WP:DENY[edit]

@RaviC and Kautilya3: WP:DENY is a valid reason to revert all edits on sight, but only for editors that are already blocked as socks, or editors that are obvious socks per WP:DUCK. If the latter rationale is being used, then you need to explain who the sockmaster is when reverting. Not only is it a necessary courtesy to talk page watchers, it makes sure no one is abusing WP:DENY, and it also allows admins who are watching (such as myself) to block the socks quickly. In this case I have no idea who the master is, nor how to go about finding them; and I cannot take any action. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Vanamonde (Talk) 15:54, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The banned editor is Mannyboy2015, who was banned for NOTHERE. Regards. --RaviC (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose to merge Agra religious conversions 2014 into Ghar Wapsi. I think that the content in the Agra religious conversions 2014 article can easily be explained in the context of Ghar Wapsi, and the Ghar Wapsi article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Agra religious conversions 2014 will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Manasbose (talk | contribs) 10:23, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You can't really merge it in this way because the Agra religious conversions 2014 is an event whereas Ghar Wapsi is a topic. Why don't you take enough content from it and summarise it as appropriate for this page? Then we can see if the other page can be deleted and/or made a redirect. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But is the event notable enough to have a separate article? Besides, half of the reference are about other incidents of Ghar Wapsi. The article Ghar Wapsi itself have more information about specific events than the term. -- Manasbose (talk | contribs) 13:19, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did not claim that it was notable. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge on the grounds that Agra religious conversions 2014 is independently notable given the extensive coverage and evidence of fraud. Klbrain (talk) 16:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closing, given the uncontested objection and no support. Klbrain (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

190 muslim converted to Hinduism in Madhya Pradesh India[edit]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/viral-videos/190-people-renounced-islam-and-converted-to-hinduism-in-dewas/videoshow/102398225.cms 110.172.173.138 (talk) 19:39, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A viral video does not consitute a reliable source. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
please check it
It is a another article of newspaper
https://www.freepressjournal.in/indore/madhya-pradesh-190-madari-community-members-embrace-sanatan-dharma Waseem25x (talk) 20:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ghar_Wapsi&oldid=1202277394"