Talk:French Army in World War I/Archive 2

Estienne and French Tanks

Not a major issue, but I thought it fairer to point out that the French developed tanks independently of, and at roughly the same time as, the British. Estienne's forenames were Jean Baptiste Eugène, not Jean-Baptiste, and the Renault tank was the FT, not FT-17. Also, the sentence previously contained a "hanging participle," which I have corrected. Hope this helps.Hengistmate (talk) 11:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

The "Weapons of War – Rifles". First World War.com. source

A large part of the equipment section is based on a very poor source:

Duffy, Michael (2002-07-28). "Weapons of War – Rifles". First World War.com. Retrieved 2009-05-07.

First of all, the Lebel did not have any issues whatsoever with the bullet tip detonating the primer. The case was far too tapered, and the primer was protected from it.

Second, the Berthier 07-15 and 16 rifles respectively held 3 and 5 rounds, not 5 and 6. Not a single Berthier with a 6 round capacity exists.

With such strange statement, I think much, if not the entire source should be disregarded and the text should be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thom430 (talk • contribs) 09:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

It is an appallingly bad source. The bulk of the content of that site has been heavily plagiarised to create this article. I have translated the shorter content on the fr.wikipedia article about French infantry in WW1. Keith H99 (talk) 10:25, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

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Wrong numbers of machine guns

Under Equippment, the article states:

"When war broke out in August 1914, the German Army had about 12.000 machine guns, while the British and French armies had a few hundred."

This statement is wrong. About german machine guns: in the book "Militärtechnik des Ersten Weltkriegs" by Wolfgang Fleischer, the author states that the number of german machine guns at the beginning of the war was 2.438 in the field army, and 2.064 in reserve. Fleischer also writes that in the rest of the year 1914 only an additional number of 1.000 was produced. 6.100 were produced in 1915, which was adequate, since at that time enough captured machine guns were in service, to compensare the losses. So the statement, that the british and french only had "a few hundred" is probably also wrong. The british and french army used a much larger number and variety of machine guns.

In the book "Sturmgewehr!" by Dieter Handrich, the author states that only 1.236 Machine guns were in active service at the outset of the war, with about 4.000 in reserve. Handrich's book is highly renowned and full of very precise information.

Btw. the german wikipedia article about the MG 08 states that 4.919 were available at the outset of the war, while the polish and italian ones give the number of 12.000 as well.

I don't know where the number 12.000 came from; maybe someone confused WW1 with WW2, because the Wehrmacht had about 12.000 MG 08/15 in september 1939. The low number for french and british machine guns can be a misunderstanding; for example, Handrich also gives detailed statistics of how many machine guns were used by the german army in the first battle of the marne, and despite the high number available, only 120 were in frontline service in september 1914. Per kilometer only 2-5 machine guns were used, depending on the division; the 19th divison had most machine guns with 24, the fifth infantry divison the least with only 6.

I know this page is not about the german army, but the number clearly is wrong, and I just posted some additional information to show that my sources are very reliable.

2003:D1:B705:E201:A184:A1E4:2766:7C2A (talk) 19:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

References

It's scary that the older articles are sourced purely with whatever someone had self-published on the internet in 2003! It's just sat there, unquestioned, for years.

Standalone numbers are meaningless crap. It makes sense to state how many were issued per battalion, and how many battalions the combatants were fielding at that point in time. Keith H99 (talk) 21:03, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Michel Goya, on page 166 of his book, also refers to the French having 5000 machine guns in 1914 too, which is consistent with the french language article you quoted.Keith H99 (talk) 02:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Gordon Corrigan confirms the British and Germans issued two machine guns per battalion, just like the French. That website is not a reliable source, clearly. Keith H99 (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

German machine guns

Ok, I corrected this statement:

When war broke out in August 1914, the German Army had about 12,000 machine guns, while the British and French armies had a few hundred.

This is complete nonsense, the article about the MG 08 clearly states how many machine guns Germany had:

On 3 August 1914, soon after the outbreak of World War I, the Army had 4,411 MG 08s, along with 398 MG 01s, 18 MG 99s and two MG 09s.[9]

You will find a confirmation of these numbers in all serious publications about this topic. One I have handy is "Deutsche Maschinengewehre" by Frank Buchholz and Thomas Brüggen.

I also doubt that the british and french had "only a few hundred". This article on Musee de l'armee states, that the French army had an equal amount of machine guns:

En 1914, les régiments français et allemands sont dotés d’un nombre égal de mitrailleuses, à raison de 6 par régiment d’infanterie et 2 par régiment de cavalerie. Ceci représente un total de 5 000 exemplaires pour chaque armée. Cependant, il existe une divergence notoire dans la conception de leur emploi. Les Français qui misent sur le choc, le corps à corps, les disposent en deuxième ou troisième échelon. Les Allemands combinent feu et mouvement pour détruire l’adversaire et poussent, à cette fin, leurs mitrailleuses en première ligne. Dans les tranchées, les « nids » de mitrailleuses sont particulièrement redoutés par les soldats. La destruction des pièces adverses devient l’objectif prioritaire de l’artillerie avant l’assaut des fantassins

Translation:

In 1914, the French and German regiments were equipped with an equal number of machine guns, 6 per infantry regiment and 2 per cavalry regiment. This represents a total of 5,000 copies for each army. However, there is a noticeable divergence in the conception of their employment. The French who bet on shock, melee, have them in second or third echelon. The Germans combine fire and movement to destroy the adversary and push their machine guns to the front line to this end. In the trenches, machine gun "nests" are particularly feared by soldiers. The destruction of enemy pieces becomes the priority objective of the artillery before the infantry assault

I could not find anything about the British. But they were pioneers in the usage of machine guns.

If the article wants to compare machine gun-numbers, it should mention that not all German machine guns were used in the west. At the outset of the war the Russians had 4.157 Maxim- and 1.387 Madsen-machine guns. The Austro-Hungarian army had about 2700 machine guns. I am not sure about Belgium, but they definitely used 66 Hotchkiss Portative.

I don't know where this "12.000" number comes from.

I am not a wikipedia author and I don't want to bumble around with your articles. So please correct this mistake. It is just total misinformation.

EDIT:

Ok, my edit has been reverted as a "Good faith"-edit. This is not good faith. Above is somebody with a source and I have included a citation.

From "Deutsche Maschinengewehre" by Buchholz and Brüggen:

Page 43: Insgesamt ergibt dies für 1906 einen Bestand von: 30 MGs 98 (MG a/A), 109 MGs 99 und 318 MGs 01 (MG n/A)

Translation:

In total, this results in a stock of: 30 MGs 98 (MG a / A), 109 MGs 99 and 318 MGs 01 (MG n / A)

Page 185: Nach Aufstellungen von Goldsmith baute DWM von 1908 bis zum Kriegsausbruch 1914 etwa 1.700 Maschinengewehre 08. Im gleichen Zeitraum produzierte die staatliche Gewehrfabrik Spandau etwa 3.000 Maschinengewehre.

Translation:

According to Goldsmith's list, DWM built around 1,700 machine guns 08 from 1908 until the outbreak of war in 1914. In the same period, the state rifle factory in Spandau produced around 3,000 machine guns

So 5.157 MGs were produced overall, and some of the outdated ones like the MG 98 were probably sold scrapped.

Here is a second source: "Militärtechnik des Ersten Weltkrieges" by Wolfgang Fleischer:

Page 28:

Zu Kriegsbeginn gab es im Deutschen Heer einen verhältnismäßig großen Vorrat an Maschinengewehren. Von den 4502 Stück waren 2438 beim Feldheer, 2064 standenn (einschließlich einer Gerätereserve von 465) in den Depots, bei den Ersatz- und Besatzungstruppen, eingeschlossen in den Festungen.

Translation:

At the beginning of the war there was a relatively large supply of machine guns in the German Army. Of the 4502 pieces, 2,438 were with the field army, 2064 (including a reserve of 465 equipment) were in the depots, with the replacement and occupation troops, locked in the fortresses

Another source is the Wikipedia-article about the MG 08.

I hope this is enough.

2003:D1:B70A:EC01:85EF:CBD4:1E0F:A664 (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC) 2003:D1:B70A:EC01:85EF:CBD4:1E0F:A664 (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Equipment

"The rifle ... remained the weapon of choice for snipers."

Musht be shome mishtake. Surely snipers prefer trench mortars, machine guns, heavy field artillery, or whatever.

To strip away my sarcasm, the point I am making is that I'm not aware of any weapon used by snipers other than the rifle. This sentence is therefore 100% redundant, and I plan to delete it. MrDemeanour (talk) 10:04, 14 November 2020 (UTC)