Talk:First Berlusconi government

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Meloni Cabinet which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

MSI vs AN

Hi all. Should we count members of the first Berlusconi cabinet as AN members or MSI members? Consider that we list party membership in the article, and the party AN was not founded until the Berlusconi cabinet was already dismissed (i.e. end of January 1995). So it physically cannot be that Tatarella etc were party members of AN, because there was no AN in that moment. In my opinion the MSI members of the government should be listed as MSI, or I could even agree to AN-MSI, but we cannot report simply AN. This is for the infobox, the tables, and the text. Yakme (talk) 15:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Yakme, I think it's better waiting a new consensus to edit the long established version of this page. However, theoretically the ministries of the government were attributed to AN, not to the MSI. In my view, there is no difference from the Berlusconi IV cabinet (Pdl vs. FI/AN). Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

What about the fact that AN did not exist as a party at the time of the Berlusconi I government? I don't understand why we should list them as members of a non-existing party. Yakme (talk) 10:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

AN was already a political force (although it was not yet a full-fledged party), and that is what matters most. The ministries were assigned to AN, not to the MSI. Furthermore, it would make little sense to indicate Fiori as a member of the AN and the others as members of the MSI... Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

In the tables and throughout all these government articles we are listing the party not the "political force" (what does that even mean?). I propose using AN–MSI when appropriate as an alternative, so it's a bit more clear that these ministers were at that time party members of MSI. Yakme (talk) 07:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Honestly I don't see the advantages of complicating things, since the exponents of the MSI were also exponents of AN: AN was founded in 1994, in 1995 it became a party (like the People of Freedom, which was founded in 2008 and became a party in 2009). If this level of detail isn't a problem for the fourth Berlusconi government, it shouldn't be for the first either...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

However I could agree to add a reference note to those politicians of the government who in 1994 were members of the MSI.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I just think there is no harm in having AN-MSI or MSI-AN (I suppose AN was founded as a faction/group stemming from MSI). There is no added clutter or complication, but there is added value because those politicians were indeed members of the MSI party. Also, historically this is important because technically it was the first time that members of MSI were in government. Yakme (talk) 08:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

In my view this information can be added in the text of the article, but the ministries were assigned to AN (as such) and not to MSI, for this reason I don't think it's essential to underline it in the table. Paradoxically, it would be more logical for the fourth Berlusconi government, where the government posts of the PDL were divided between FI and AN, according to precise quotas (but I would like to keep both table as they are now). Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

In the 4th Berlusconi government surely there was no MSI anymore, so for that table I would not use MSI. Again, as AN was not a party at the time of this government (1st Berlusconi), I still think that we should actually indicate ministers with their party membership, i.e. MSI, instead of their "quotas". My compromise is to use AN–MSI. And by the way, a similar reasoning was done for the independent ministers of the Conte governments: for them we still use "Independent" as party membership, and not refer to their "quota" membership (see for example Sergio Costa which was M5S quota or Bussetti in the Lega quota, both denoted as Independent in the table). Yakme (talk) 10:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Independents are another matter (to be indicated as independent, a Minister must not be elected with any party/list, unlike for example Nordio). At the beginning of the fourth Berlusconi government, the PDL was not yet a party (it was a federation between FI and AN), but this was never a problem... We could indicate MSI in brackets - AN (MSI) - but in each it looks like something "extra" to me... Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

This is becoming, as usual, too long. The matter is very simple: these ministers were members of party X, and therefore they should be an indication that they were members of party X in the "Party" column in the table. It's not appropriate to state that they are just members of an organization Y, which did not exist yet as a party, if they indeed were still members of party X. This applies to any government, so if there are problems with other articles too, they should also be fixed – I never stated otherwise. However, in the PDL case of 2008-2013, one could argue that PDL was founded as a party in 2009, i.e. still during the government life. So the table could contain the "latest" party membership (PDL), with a note explaining that during 2008-2009 they were actually still members of FI or AN. In the case of AN/MSI in 1994, AN was not founded until after the government was disbanded – therefore it is inappropriate to misguide the reader by stating that these ministers were members of the AN party in 1994-1995. Yakme (talk) 10:18, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Looking only at the membership cards in the pockets of ministers risks becoming very complicated: think of the Meloni government, Nordio would be an independent. In my opinion we shouldn't try to complicate things where in reality they are simple, these ministers were members of AN in 1994, indeed at that time AN already existed and was on its way to becoming a full fledged party. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Then Nordio is an independent, I don't see the problem. Party memberships are not an opinion, they should be clear from facts and documents, and Wikipedia is based on documented facts. Yakme (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

But Nordio is a member of FdI, because he sits among the ranks of FDI in Parliament. We have different views on this matter. But I really don't see the need to complicate a simple thing, I think it would be enough to explain the situation in the text of the article. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Nordio is a member of FdI group then it's ok to write FdI. Tatarella is a member of MSI party and AN-MSI group, so it should say MSI somewhere, why just AN? It's easy, it's not complicated. I really don't understand why you are so contrary to showing true, complete information in the table. Yakme (talk) 10:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Fisichella and Fiori were members of the AN-MSI group too, so also them should be indicated as members of AN-MSI, not only Tatarella and Poli Bortone. They were all members of AN-MSI, even if some of them had not the mebership card of the MSI. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

That is fine for me, of course. Yakme (talk) 15:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

If you prefer that way, then you can proceed.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:25, 9 June 2023 (UTC)