Talk:Fatherland and Liberty

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Citation requested, and provided[edit]

Here is an adequate source--the book: "The State as Terrorist: The Dynamics of Governmental Violence and Repression" by Prof. Michael Stohl, and Prof. George A. Lopez; Greenwood Press, 1984. Page 51:

More recently, in the period 1970-1973, the United States worked on a number of levels to overthrow the elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile. In addition to nonterroristic strategies such as bribery after the election campaign, the United States embarked on a program to create economic and political chaos in Chile. The CIA was implicated in the assassination of René Schneider, the commander-in-chief of the Chilean army, who was selected as a target because he refused to prevent Allende from taking office. "The United States government attempted to foment a coup, it discused coup plans with the Chileans later convicted of Schneider's abduction, it advocated his removal as a step toward overturning the results of a free election, it offered a payment of $50,000 for Schneider's kidnapping and it supplied the weapons for this strategy." 25 After the failure to prevent Allende from taking office, efforts shifted to obtaining his removal. At least $7 million was authorized by the United States for CIA use in the destabilizing of Chilean society. This included financing and assisting opposition groups and right-wing terrorist paramilitary groups such as Patria y Libertad ("Fatherland and Liberty"). Finally, in September 1973 the Allende government was overthrown in a brutal and violent military coup in which the United States was intimately involved. The message for the populations of Latin American nations and particularly the Left opposition was clear: the United States would not permit the continuation of a Socialist government, even if it came to power in a democratic election and continued to uphold the basic democratic structure of that society."

Can someone add this to the article? I'll remove the citation needed tags.Giovanni33 (talk) 20:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds more like cheap political propaganda that anything else. If you want to make a political cartoon of the chilean history then at least it also should include the money and weapons given to Allende by the KGB and the DGI, Allende`s continuous violations to the chilean law and constitution and his support for marxist terrorism and political violence.190.45.74.50 (talk) 18:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Patria y Libertad was not a terrorist group[edit]

Their violence was headed toward the marxist terrorist groups that supported Allende`s illegal and unconstitutional government, they didnt attack the civilian population.

Im going to edit this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.45.74.50 (talk) 18:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LULZ. Illegal unconstitutional government? You're a troll! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.217.213 (talk) 18:52, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Troll? What he says was also the view of the Chilean parliament. --41.150.234.218 (talk) 00:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Fascism and neo-fascism[edit]

The article provides referneces calling the the group "fascist", but actually none of these seem to justify on why PyL would be fascist. For comparison, Pinochet has also been called "fascist" by numerous sources, some of them of good standing, but closer inspection reveal that the academics of fascism exclude him from the true fascism. Why would the case of PyL be different? Dentren | ^Talk 01:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

PyL was formed before the coup. and it had a clearly defined fascist ideology. The Spanish version of this article has a section from their manifesto which should probably be translated and added here. That's why they were called fascist, their ideology was pretty much copy and pasted from other fascist groups, so there's much less or no doubt there. Pinochet's case is different because he didn't write a manifesto, and he wasn't ultranationalist and antiliberal, both things that PyL were. --201.189.113.84 (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no WP:RS doing the analysis IP 201.189.113.84 mention, on why PyL is fascist, then it must be considered original research. Dentren | ^Talk 01:01, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources can be easily found. PyL was a (neo-)fascist organization: anti-communism combined with anti-capitalism, nationalism and authoritarianism/anti-parliamentarianism. Pinochet was a ruthless dictator but not exactly a fascist, because he pursued economically liberal policies, lacked any kind of totalitarian ideology that would have been forced to guide people's everyday lives and allowed certain limited political opposition (both of which e.g. Franco disallowed in 1940s and 1950s).Potugin (talk) 21:45, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I am concerned Roberto Thieme rejects the label "fascist" for him and the movement. Is there any in-depth analysis of PyL in WP:RS that classifies the movement as such? The question is of relevance since the label fascist is often used to smear opponents. Dentren | ^Talk 23:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dentren Pinochet was not a fascist as claimed. but he can be generalized as more of a Populist Ultranationalist as per mentioned in the article that exclude him from the true fascism. Since his administration highly dependant on the United States This itself is ambigous since US wont support any form of Fascism. This can of course pull the support of the West from him. And at this point, all arguments that supports PyL as "Fascist" is WP:OR. But the claim of it's corporatism and antiliberalism is somehow can "to some extent" proven. As stated in this article that i found here: "La matriz antiliberal en las derechas radicales: el caso del Frente Nacional Patria y Libertad en Chile (1971-1973)". {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

"This theme of anti-parliamentarism is, of course, the main theme of the FNPL's ideology and translates into an omnipresent criticism of the political parties that would be the most responsible for the country's decline. It would be the agent of "environmental demagoguery" in terms of the movement. The social conflict, certainly exacerbated at this moment of extreme political tension, is nevertheless considered inherent to democracy and, therefore, endangers the unity of the Nation. The end of these representative entities of the people, which would not represent more than 10% of the population, is peremptorily announced".

While we can certainly agree that PyL was not "Fascist" as it claimed to be, but we can say it has a pattern of one. but clearly not one. as this also might be per WP:RS, since also in the Journal that i provided above, fascism is not included in the essay. Keppa 03:40, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the source Keppa. From its title it appears to be valuable and more appropiate source to describe the the movement. Certainly, similarities between PyL and fascist groups do exists, maybe this article clarifies this. Dentren | ^Talk 16:57, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]