Talk:Eric Brown (pilot)

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I'm flying high on a rocket to the sky[edit]

Amongst his portfolio is the Me-163, a rocket-powered aircraft. I understand that US servicepeople who travel into space are eligible for an astronaut's badge; is there some kind of international recognition for piloting a rocket (albeit in the atmosphere)? The act of flying on a rocket is still fairly exclusive, and it sounds like the kind of thing that would come to the attention of the international aviation community. I imagine that the RAF does not have a rocketeers' award, but I could be wrong. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 16:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brown was lucky in that he was told that the use of the Komet engine's highly-dangerous rocket fuels was soon to be forbidden by the Allies as they were horrendously dangerous, so he started to look for Komets and was lucky enough to find some airworthy examples on an airfield in Germany with some friendly ex-Luftwaffe personnel who helped brief him on flying the machine and who handled the fuelling of the aircraft, just a few days before the use of the fuels was prohibited. When the fuels were banned the captured stocks were destroyed, so after that no-one could fly one powered even if they had wanted to. Komets were flown afterwards, but only as gliders, so Brown may well have been one of the last pilots to fly one 'properly'. Brown himself flew the RAE's own Komet, VF241 [1], several times afterwards as a glider, usually being towed aloft by a Spitfire IX from either Wisley Airfield or RAF Wittering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.252.207 (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Undiscussed rename[edit]

What a poor choice of name. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 15:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I moved it back, it made him sound like a captain of a boat.Rememberway (talk) 15:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In what way does "Royal Navy officer" make him sound like the captain of a boat? It makes him sound like an officer in the Royal Navy, which is exactly what he was and is the standard way to disambiguate Royal Navy officers! The same disambiguator would be used for medical officers, chaplains, engineers or supply officers, none of whom are captains of boats (or even ships) but all of whom are Royal Navy officers (see Category:Royal Navy officers if you don't believe me). Or are you claiming that despite spending over thirty years in the Royal Navy and holding the rank of captain, he wasn't actually a Royal Navy officer? What a bizarre thing to say. -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm saying that it's not sufficient for the article title to be technically correct, plenty of things you can put in the name would be correct; but the purpose of the name is that it must optimally suggest what he most notably did for people looking for him in the Wikipedia. The major thing here isn't that he was a Royal Navy Officer, although he clearly was, it was that he flew aircraft as a test pilot, as that seems to be what he was most known for.Rememberway (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tell, me, what Wikipedia naming policy are you following when you add the Royal Navy Officer to the article name?Rememberway (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Consistency, as per the other articles in the category. It's long been established that that's how we disambiguate British military officers. As a professional naval officer known as a military pilot, not someone who was known as a pilot in civilian life and just happened to briefly serve in the Royal Navy, that's the disambiguator we should use. You'll find the same logic used in the articles in Category:Royal Air Force officers, the majority of whom were pilots and many of whom are primarily known for being pilots, but are still disambiguated as "(RAF officer)" unless they were better-known as civilian pilots. -- Necrothesp (talk) 01:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to be incompatible with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people).Rememberway (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In what way? I see no incompatibility whatsoever. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being." I don't think he's most noted for being a naval officer, he's most noted for being a really excellent test pilot.Rememberway (talk) 16:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While he was serving as a naval officer, which was his actual career. As a captain, he was hardly somebody who was a naval officer in his spare time! Had he concentrated on being a pilot and not an officer, he's unlikely to have got beyond lieutenant-commander at the highest, which is the usual maximum rank in the British forces for pilots who choose to concentrate on flying and not command. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe that that's relevant. If you ask someone who Eric "winkle" Brown is, if they know who he is they'll very probably say he was a test pilot, not that he was a naval officer. In fact the Wikipedia seems to more or less systematically remove titles and ranks from nearly all biographical article names. The point of the article name is for people to find the correct article easily, not to force people to have to know his rank or which service he was in to find it.Rememberway (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And that's nothing to do with him in particular, it's just the way it's done in the Wikipedia, it's the house style, with only very rare exceptions, where the rank has essentially become part of the name he is known by. But I don't see anything about this particular person that requires it to be one of those rare exceptions.Rememberway (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When was he promoted to Captain?[edit]

The article doesn't say. Moriori (talk) 22:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1960. I've added it to the article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

==National Geographic reader. Was he really the first to land a jet aircraft on an aircraft carrier?=--lbeben 23:35, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Landing on HMS Indefatigable on 25 March 1944?[edit]

All for me available sources say Brown landed with a Mosquito on 25 March 1944 on HMS Indefatigable. --Rakell (talk) 17:42, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you quote any? Or maybe one. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:14, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This history site says there were "Successful landing trials of MOSQUITO aircraft" on Indefatigable on 15 March 1944 during contractor's sea trials (a couple of weeks before being accepted into the RN). There is no mention of names of the pilots involved, so it would be good to get a reliable source for Winkle Brown, if there is one.
Rakell, I have amended the heading you put on this section, because you had the class of the ship, not its name. Cheers. Moriori (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A 1946 Flight article on the Mosquito, including Brown's landing-on on Indefatigable - Brown is named at end of article - here: [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 20:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Martinevans123, excuse my late answer. I am very seldom in the english Wikipedia. In the link given by 80.7.147.13 you find on page 207 of FLIGHT from FEBRUARY 28TH, I946 the following: "The trials were carried out on March 25th and 26th, 1944, from H.M.S. Indefatigable, and the Mosquito L.R. 359 was piloted by Lt. Cdr. E. M. Brown" and in the book A CENTURY OF CARRIER AVIATION from David Hobbs you find on page 186 as a description of a picture of the Mosquito landing: "The first carrier landing by a twin-engine aircraft. Lieutenant Commander Eric Brown lands a Mosquito FB.VI on HMS Indefatigable on 25 March 1944." I change now the article to this information. --Rakell (talk) 10:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

DH.108[edit]

Brown's altitude is queried [3]

AIUI, the DH.108 had behaved itself at high altitude (40,000 feet) and resultant high Mach (for the same airspeed) but had failed for de Havilland at a much lower altitude where he was chasing a higher absolute speed whilst avoiding the Mach issues. I haven't removed this query though, because I thought de Havilland was at something like 10,000 feet, not 4,000 and so it's not clear if this is Brown being even lower (maybe to try and reproduce the problem) or if it is indeed a simple digit placement typo from 40. Sources anyone? Andy Dingley (talk) 19:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, Brown repeated DH's flights at a number of different altitudes and it was only at one particular one that the extreme oscillations occurred. I don't have the original reference any more - I got Wings on My Sleeve from a library - but the figure I originally added would have been accurate. DH may have been in a dive at the time and so may well have descended to 4,000 ft by the time the aircraft broke up.
BTW, the sole purpose of the test Brown performed was to try and find out what had actually happened to DH. There were no witnesses to the accident - it was out over the Thames Estuary - and all that was known was that he had failed to return from the test flight and that the wreckage and his body had been later found in Egypt Bay. So - in the absence of an automatic observer (cameras filming the flight instruments) - any altitudes DH had been flying at would have to be conjecture. The DH 108 didn't have the engine power to reach Mach 1.0 in level flight, so all the high Mach number tests would have been carried out in dives.
Purely my conjecture but I suspect that DH carried out a number of dives, each starting at a lower altitude - it takes time to climb back to 40,000 ft - so I suspect that each dive commenced at around the altitude that the preceding one finished. By the time he was at say 10,000 ft he started his final dive and when he reached 4,000 ft the accident occurred due to the combination of air density at that altitude and localised buffeting of the airflow around the airframe at that particular speed. But that's just my guess.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.18.168 (talk) 11:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Awards[edit]

The BBC http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30039300 gives his title/awards: "Captain Eric Melrose Brown CBE, DSC, AFC, KCVSA, PhD Hon FRAeS, RN is his full title." (added by User:DaPi).

Aumnamahashiva, why do you say "no post-nominal for the King's/Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service; academic honours not listed in title" as you did when you undid my additions to Brown's name? It is, as noted above by DaPi above, what the BBC gave as his full name in their cited article of 14 November. Chief archivist (talk) 17:03, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The King's/Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service doesnt actually have a post-nominal so KCVSA has been made up. MilborneOne (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Made up by the BBC do you think? They're a reliable source, so why not quote them on it? Chief archivist (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly made up by somebody, just because it is on the BBC magazine website doesnt mean they always get it right. MilborneOne (talk) 17:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
MilborneOne, where is rightness for this defined? Chief archivist (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/56878/supplement/3355/data.pdf at least make no mention of a post-nominal. If it existed then one would expect it to appear somewhere in the London Gazette, it doesnt. MilborneOne (talk) 18:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No mention of an offical abbreviation here: Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If we are using the London Gazette as the yardstick here, then maybe we need another article called Queen's Commendation for Valuable Services in the Air, or at least mention, in the existing article, that it's a distinct award in its own right. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Correct meaning of 'KCVSA' is "KCVSA = King's Commendation for Valuable Services in the Air" - info here: [4] and another source mentioning Brown himself being a KCVSA here: [5]
I have added the KCVSA award back. Next time before disputing additions at least do some research before making accusations such as 'clearly made up by somebody', that first link above refers to awards made in 1946 and finding both references took me less than a couple of minutes.
Did you intend to reply to me? (And, if you don't have an account, could you at least please sign your posts?) Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think your first source is a good one, as it's a "self-published" forum. Your second source looks like a WP:RS and I guess should be added in support somewhere. It would be good if the article had details of when it was awarded. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
One here for QCVSA - Queen Elizabeth was on the throne by then so it becomes 'Queen's' rather than 'King's Commendation for Valuable Services in the Air': [6] and another here: [7]. 1950 KCVSA ref here: [8] and another one from the same year here: [9] and one from 1948 here: [10] and finally a 1949 one for "Lieutenant Commander E. M. Brown, O.B.E., D.S.C., A.F.C." himself here: [11].
... 1952 article by Brown himself on Naval Test-Flying here: [12]
The comment about being made up is related to it being used as post-nominal not that we have any doubt that he was awarded the commendation. As it is never used as a post-nominal I have removed it. MilborneOne (talk) 19:12, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You mean "never used by the London Gazette" - [13]? And one of the sources given by the unsigned anon editor suggests there were two variants - civil and military. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not here to make up stuff just because others dont do it correctly doesnt mean we have to. MilborneOne (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Non-appearance of something in the London Gazette seems a strange kind of proof that something doesn't exist. And I would have thought that a publication by The Honourable Company of Air Pilots would be regarded as a reliable source for this topic. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think that The Honourable Company of Air Pilots can be classed as an authority on post-nominals. MilborneOne (talk) 20:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nor would they claim that, I'm sure. But I didn't know WP:RS worked like that. Isn't there a more official source for deciding this? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anybody have any idea when Brown was promoted to OBE, he received an MBE in 1944 and was an OBE by the time ge got his AFC in 1947 ? MilborneOne (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

MilborneOne: St James's Palace, SW1. 19th February, 1946. "Temporary Acting Lieutenant Commander (A) Eric Melrose BROWN, M B E , DSC, RNVR. For courage, exceptional skill and devotion to duty in carrying out the first deck-landings of Mosquito and Vampire. In doing so he has been the first pilot ever to land on the deck of a carrier, a twin-engined aircraft ('Mosquito) and a pure jet-propelled aircraft (Vampire) The success of these great strides in Naval Aviation has been largely due to his exceptional flying skill" [14] Alansplodge (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are no post nominals for the King's Commendation for Valuable Services in the Air. The KCVSA is indeed made up by someone who clearly had no idea what they were talking about. For reference, the official guidance is here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/medals-campaigns-descriptions-and-eligibility — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.199.40.213 (talk) 15:54, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Brown's first flight[edit]

"He first flew when he was eight or ten when he was taken up in a Gloster Gauntlet by his father." If Brown was born in 1919, he would have been eight in 1927 and ten in 1929. According to our article, the Gauntlet entered service in 1935. Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In another interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80dhBMAgHXs he said it was a Gloster Gamecock. MilborneOne (talk) 18:08, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And he says in that one "when I was, I think, about eight years old". Is it clarified in any of his books? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not mentioned in "Wings on My Sleeve" but he does say he flew Gauntlets when he was in the R Aux AF/University Air Squadron which he joined in 1937. MilborneOne (talk) 16:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly it was a actually a Gloster Grebe or Gloster Gamecock.

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Well done[edit]

Well done to everyone who's put so much into this article since Brown's death. The general trend of the edits has been one of great improvement. Now, I really can't be ****ed to go and fillet it out of the page history, but I especially wanted to thank whoever sorted out the mess about which most-decorated pilot, alive or dead, he was ... in the Navy or the FAA or both or whatever. That was a tricky little shambles until quite recently and was driving me nuts, and is now elegantly sorted. So thanks. With best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RFC?[edit]

A nitpick, I know, but I can't get the gist of this:

It was here that Brown first met Ernst Udet, a former World War I fighter ace, who was fascinated to make the acquaintance of a former RFC pilot.

The RFC merged with the RNAS to become the RAF in 1919, the Year Eric Brown was born. So which RFC pilot is being discussed?

~~Andy~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loates Jr (talk • contribs) 13:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good point but without seeing the original source it all seems to back to front, it should be Brown who would have been fascinated with a former Luftwaffe pilot, Udet probably had no idea who Brown a 17-year old Schoolboy was in 1936. It is likely that the reference is to Udet meeting Brown senior. MilborneOne (talk) 14:33, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I had certainly read it that way. The previous sentence gives the context? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Brown's father was an ex-RFC pilot and it was he who was invited to attend the meeting at-which Udet was present. Eric was invited along too, being a young boy interested in aeroplanes, and flying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.18.150 (talk) 10:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology of Eric's RAE Employment[edit]

In the Wartime Services section, it is stated ...

″Next operational once again, in 1943, he then went back to the RAE, this time to perform experimental flying″

However, this is the first mention of the RAE. His time at the RAE is then expanded in subsequent paras.

A clarification on the correct sequence of Eric's employment with the RAE - when/why/how he was initially posted there etc. - would improve this article.

Once resolved, there will also need to be a correction to expand the first occurrence to Royal Aircraft Establishment in full.

MrEckLeckTick (talk) 14:31, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aero Society interview[edit]

There's a fascinating 1979 interview on early transonic flight with Eric Brown here: [15]

"Most decorated"[edit]

In this edit, the soured claim that "He was also the most-decorated pilot in the history of the Royal Navy" was removed with the edit summary: "It is incorrect to say that Eric Brown was the "most decorated pilot in the history of the Royal Navy". Robert A. Little (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Little) is the most decorated Royal Navy pilot in history. His multiple awards easily outdo ." I'm really not sure who ranks higher in terms of awards. Both had multiple awards. But the source used to support the claim, Kevin Ralwnson in The Guardian, looks like a reliable one? I can see no exactly similar claim at Robert A. Little, but there is a claim that he was the "most successful Australian flying ace" and "As well as the eighth most successful Commonwealth ace of World War I, and the ranking RNAS ace, this score made him the most prolific Australian ace of all time, ahead of Stan Dallas with an official score of thirty-nine..." (is there a word missing before "ranking" there?) Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a journalist from the Guardian is reputable but in this case the title of "most decorated" just doesn't sit. When using the term "decorated", it refers to the decorations awarded to the individual. For this particular instance, the decorations awarded to Eric Brown, not to diminish his performances, are of a lesser weighting than Robert A. Little. For this you need to understand medals and decorations and the order of precedence. The decorations that Eric Brown received are 18 (DSC),21 (AFC) and 43 (Kin's commendation for valuable service in the air) in the order of precedent. For those of Robert A. Little, his decorations are 10(DSO and bar for second award)), 18(DSC and bar for second award) and 41 (Mentioned in Dispatches), as well as the the French Croix de guerre. Just by weighting of these awards, Eric Brown is not even close to Robert Little. Eric Brown is not the most decorated Royal Navy pilot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.199.40.213 (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So a DSC's worth 18 decoration points? Doesn't a bar also add something on? How much is a French Croix de Guerre worth? We don't want Wikipedia to turn into Mark Smith here, do we. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Who said anything about points? If you are holding the keys to edits at least try and get an understanding of what is being said and not resort to puerile responses. The order of precedence is there for a reason. My response above clearly outlines how the decorations of Robert Little are "worth more" than those of Eric Brown. Number one in the order of precedence is the Victoria Cross, followed by the George Cross and so on. If you were to use your simplistic view of this, the VC would be worth 100 points, the GC 99 points and so on until you reach the King's Commendation for valuable service in the air at 57 points. So using this ludicrous points system you have come up with, Eric Brown's points are DSC (82), AFC (79) King's Commendation...(57) so that is a total of 218. In contrast Robert Little would have DSO (90*2=180), DSC (82*2=164), MID (59) with a total of 403. The French Croix de guerre is a foreign award and holds no weighting in the British order of precedence. As I have repeatedly said, Eric Brown isn't even close to being the most decorated Royal Navy pilot. I suggest if you are going to deny edits you should understand what you are denying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.199.40.213 (talk) 04:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A bar is equivalent to being awarded the medal a second time, so if the medal was worth 18pts, then the bar is worth another 18 pts. Mjroots (talk) 05:31, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah right, I see. I've come up with some a "simplistic, ridiculous and ludicrous puerile points system." Perhaps we could book a future appointment for more of your expert advice. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC) p.s. many thanks for the info, Mjroots.[reply]
@Martinevans123:, can't say I've heard of this points system. Maybe we need input from the experts at MILHIST? Mjroots (talk) 06:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nor me. Yes, that would be a good idea. Meanwhile, I'm not sure the deletion should be repeated, by an apparently WP:SPA, on the basis of what is apparently their own WP:OR. As the source is generally a reliable one, perhaps the text should be adjusted to say "Brown has been described as ... "Martinevans123 (talk) 07:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Forget the "points", I've never heard of that system. The DSO (when awarded for gallantry, it could be awarded for either gallantry or leadership, sometimes both) was the second-level gallantry award for British Empire officers until 1993 (when it was opened to enlisted ranks), only the VC was higher. Both of Little's DSOs were clearly awarded for gallantry. The DSC was a third-level award. So, Little's two DSOs (plus two DSCs) clearly makes him far more decorated than Brown with a single DSC. Despite the fact that Brown's CBE is immediately in front of the DSO in the order of wear, given it wasn't for gallantry, I don't think it could possibly outweigh Little's two DSOs and two DSCs. I don't think some Guardian journo is a reliable source for this fact when it is clear to anyone with knowledge of gallantry awards that Little is more highly decorated. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair comment. Many thanks for the clarity. I still think that in some way the article ought to be able to describe Brown as "highly decorated", as well as showing his tally of awards in the infobox. Would it be correct to say he was "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy"? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you can say he was "decorated" in the first sentence (a CBE and a single DSC is hardly "highly decorated" IMHO, but you need a reliable source for the "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as the Purple Heart is concerned, Mjroots, it is a medal for being wounded, the British system doesn't have an equivalent, it is far below a VC, the US equivalent of the VC is the Medal of Honor. The position of the Purple Heart in the US order of wear indicates its importance, my understanding is that it is worn after the Bronze Star, which is roughly equivalent to the British Military Cross when awarded for valour, a third-level gallantry award like the British DSC (not the US DSC, which is a second-level award). The other issue with Brown is, surely there were other British Royal Navy pilots who have received at least one DSO for gallantry? A quick look at Category:Royal Naval Air Service aviators found Arthur Bigsworth who was British and DSO & Bar? Bigsworth is the sort of flier who might be a contender for "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy", assuming there are no VCs? We need far better sources than some newspaper article by a non-expert, what you need is a book on the RNAS and Fleet Air Arm that says who "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy" was. Given his awards and the examples of Little and Bigsworth, it is an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim, IMHO, and extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I quite agree with the need for better sources, such as a book on the RNAS and Fleet Air Arm. I opened the discussion here in the hope that it would be a useful alternative to tit-for-tat edit warring. I think it mostly has been very useful, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is moot, as a bit of cross-checking found Richard Bell Davies and Reginald Warneford who both received the VC while flying with the RNAS in WWI. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:50, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I guess this might all hinge on what is understood by the phrase "most decorated". There might be differing interpretations of what that means. I don't believe there is any agreed definition at Wikipedia. How about in any reliable external source(s)? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Peacemaker maybe it would be useful to have a table of the various medals and their value so that they can be easily evaluated as to the weight they carry. This would also need to cover civilian and dual issue medals such as the George Medal/Cross, British Empire Medal, Order of Leopold etc. It could be housed in project space, such as WP:MILHIST/Medals. Any discussion re awarding a points value (or not) can take place at that page's talk page. Mjroots (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Of course he's not the most decorated pilot in the history of the Royal Navy. Two third-level awards is not that much. And neither is Little. Three RN pilots won the Victoria Cross for starters: Richard Bell Davies (VC, CB, DSO, AFC), Eugene Esmonde (VC, DSO), Reginald Warneford. Given the VC outranks any other award, I would say that Bell Davies takes the prize! I have no idea where this "points system" comes from, incidentally. If someone has a VC, even with nothing else, that makes them more highly decorated than anyone who doesn't. It's not about quantity; it's about level. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can assure you that any "points system" didn't come from me, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC) [reply]
I wasn't suggesting it did. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks. I wouldn't want to be accused of medaling with the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC) [reply]
I note that the cited Guardian article actually says that Brown was the most decorated Fleet Air Arm pilot, not Royal Navy pilot as this article claimed. Little and Bell Davies were both WWI RNAS pilots, not FAA pilots. However, given Esmonde was an FAA pilot and I'm damn sure many other FAA pilots had DSOs with bars and also DSCs with bars, even this claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:26, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the scrutiny. So it seems the IP has done us all a big favour. Perhaps we'll eventually get a List of FAA pilots in order of decorations, etc? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, Brown's MBE and OBE might count towards decorations in this sense, as both were probably awarded for bravery (the London Gazette is often not entirely clear as to which were formally awarded for bravery and which for service, but the citations suggest the former), but as third-level awards they still don't trump VCs and DSOs. His CBE was definitely awarded for service, so doesn't really count in the "most decorated" stakes (which usually only refers to awards for bravery, although also usually including all DSOs, including those awarded for leadership). -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, maybe. One gets a medal. But, as I hinted above, I've yet to see a reliably-sourced and fully-agreed definition of what "most decorated" actually means. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All MBEs etc now are for service. But until replaced with the Queen's Gallantry Medal in 1974, they were also used as the third-level award for non-combat gallantry (after the GC and GM). So Brown effectively had four third-level gallantry decorations. Highly-decorated, yes, but still beaten by a DSO and certainly by a VC. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Brown's 1946 OBE was "For courage, exceptional skill and devotion to duty" specifically related to the Mosquito and Vampire deck landings. [16] Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if this helps, but www.royalnavy.mod.uk says: "Medals awarded to the Royal Navy's most decorated pilot, Captain Eric Brown are to be displayed at the Fleet Air Arm Museum", although a quote in the same article by a spokesman for the museum only says that he "was by many measures the Fleet Air Arm's most significant pilot of the post-war period". Alansplodge (talk) 14:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Brown may be the FAAs "most decorated" on a simple count. Mjroots (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Avoid these phrasings, they are misleading and elide the fact that there are multiple ways to count, and different people could have valid different opinions on who is "most decorated" depending on how they count. (t · c) buidhe 08:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could this be worded as something like "Brown received more medals and other awards than any other Royal Navy pilot"? Nick-D (talk) 09:18, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Only if it can be proved to be true. I'm dubious, frankly. Best avoided altogether. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tend to agree. But any talk of "proof" will rely on some reliable source(s). Not sure if there is an agreed canonical source for this. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm dubious of any source for this sort of thing, however official it may seem. Claims that someone once read somewhere are often presented as gospel truth, even on official websites. And that includes the MOD, given I once found an article I'd written for Wikipedia copied verbatim on an official MOD website with no acknowledgement that it came from Wikipedia. The London Gazette would be canonical proof that he didn't have the most decorations if we could find another FAA pilot who had more decorations, but can't of course be used as proof that he had the most decorations. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Here we go. Stanley Orr was a Fleet Air Arm pilot. He had the DSC and two bars and the AFC. That's four third-level decorations, so he at least equals Brown. And I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least one FAA pilot out there who was DSO* DSC*, which would exceed both of them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Josef Kramer and Irma Grese[edit]

I have just changed a reference from a now-defunct web page, to page-98 of Wings on my Sleeve. I suspect the other reference was cribbed from Wings on my Sleeve. Brown was shocked by the conditions at Belsen. Given his relationship with Germans, particularly some Nazis, it clearly disturbed him. Brown interviewed Kramer and Griese (Brown's spelling) at the request of medical Brigadier Glyn Hughes. He does not describe the contents of the interview. He may have asked "Where is the food and medical supplies?" for all we know. His assessment of them as "loathsome creatures" may be based on the interviews, or it may be based on the conditions of the camp they ran. JHowardGibson (talk) 15:41, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I created much of the original text of the article back in around 2010-2013 and indeed used "Wings On My Sleeve" as a reference, although I thought I had cited it properly at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.50.152 (talk) 10:01, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Parents and Place of Birth[edit]

The recently released 1921 Scottish Census lists Eric Brown, born London, age 2 years 6 months, adopted son of Robert J and Euphemia Brown, living at 269 Leith Walk, South Leith, Edinburgh. Census image is available from the Scotland's People website. Complete source citation exists at Capt Brown's WikiTree profile, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Brown-9509. Due to statutory privacy restrictions, this information was not available previously. Conflicting information in previous existing sources far removed in time from the actual event (biographies, obituaries, etc) is incorrect and was not verifiable before publication of the 1921 Census. Also, please note that the Birth Registration database at Scotland's People has no entry for Eric, son of Robert and Euphemia Brown, which it naturally would not have for a child born outside Scotland. Therefore, the 1921 Census is the earliest documentation of Capt Brown's birth and should supersede subsequent unverified sources. Another editor updated the article with this information, but it has since been reverted. I hope the interested Projects will look into this issue and correct the article as appropriate. MundoMango (talk) 20:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Beaver's recently published authorised biography reveals that Winkle was adopted soon after birth, and that his adoptive father never was a pilot. Just two of many details which Beaver discovered were fictions, cover-ups and exaggerations created by Winkle and presented as fact, both in his talks and his books. Beaver also points out that Wings on my Sleeve was not actually written by Winkle: "The final draft was written by the Admiralty’s in-house ghostwriter and prolific naval author Kenneth Poolman." (presumably written based on extensive interviews with Winkle and an indeterminate amount of Winkle's own writing). I don't have time and inclination to work through the whole Wikipedia entry (and in any case I need to return the book to my local library!) but someone ought to do a thorough (tedious?) job of updating the entry making reference to this new book.
Winkle: The Extraordinary Life of Britain’s Greatest Pilot
Paul Beaver
Penguin Michael Joseph
2023
ISBN 978-0-718-18670-8 Tim Forcer (talk) 07:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"First Carrier Landing of Twin-Engined Aircraft"[edit]

The top of this page says that Brown made the first landing, but there are sources on the page for the Potez 56 that state that aircraft made the first landing, many years before. Needs clarifying? TheHamSack (talk) 17:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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