Talk:Eleanor of Aquitaine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I am very dubious about the link concerning the tapestry designs from the Dame à la Licorne series. The formatting of the web page is a huge hindrance to readability. As I am not one to judge French visual puns I cannot make comment on the first half of the page where deciphering of the tapestries is described. However towards the end of the page the author begins to go off on a tangent concerning the “sang réal", that is the myth that Christ bore heirs and that the “blood” of Christ ran through the reigning houses of Europe. This coupled with a virtually Gnostic theory of history of the Italians leads me to doubt much of anything the author says about these tapestries. - Frank Burdett

-the link has been removed so the above is now redundant- Frank Burdett 9.28.04

Birthdate Discussion

Can someone check the new birthdate of 1127? The old one was 1121 and 1122 seems to be the most popular number on the Internet. Can someone knowledgeable check into this? Tbjablin 01:14, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The two leading contenders for her birthyear are 1122 and 1124. The former is the more commonly given, while the latter is the more likely. We should probably give it as "about 1122/1124" - Nunh-huh 01:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that is possible but if she was born in 1122 she would have been about 44 when her youngest son John was born. I think that about 1125 to 1127 is more likely, but i will recheck my sources.

I've never seen it given as 1127. 1122 and 1124 are the ones supported by most historians. The birthdates of her sons may be innaccurate, we don't know.

Thanks. Tbjablin 07:25, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I recently found out something about Eleanors father. Some newer sources state his birthdate as 1108 to 1110. But if Eleanor was born in 1122 her father would have only been about 12. So, it seems possible that Eleanor was born later.

Would mind updating the William X page to reflect this and citing a source? Right now his birthdate is listed as 1099. Tbjablin 04:54, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Duke William X was definitely born in 1099, as he was born in Toulouse, and his parents only ruled that city for one year. A year later his father left on Crusade and didn't return for several years, so that doesn't leave a great deal of time for William to be born anytime else. As for Eleanor, we don't know her exact birthdate. Her parents married in 1121, and her mother died in 1130. That gives us a span of nine years for the births of Eleanor and her two younger siblings. All things considered, I think a birthdate 1122-1125 is the best bet. Even assuming she was born in the later 1120s puts her around forty when John was born. But it's not impossible for a woman of forty-five or so to give birth, especially one as fertile as Eleanor. Missi

More chronological considerations -- Eleanor's first grandchild, Henry II of Champagne, was several months older than his uncle, John of England. Henry was born July 1166, while John was born December 1166. There is a twenty-one year age gap between Eleanor's eldest child, Marie, and her youngest, John. Assuming a birthdate of 1122, Eleanor was 23 at Marie's birth and 44 at John's. Assuming a birthdate of 1128, Eleanor was seventeen at Marie's birth and thirty-eight at John's. I think an 1128 birthdate is the absolute latest possible birthdate for Eleanor, considering her mother died in 1130, and there were at least two children younger than Eleanor. Missi 03:14, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I predict that the birthdate 1124 or 1125 is most likely, and a number of leading biogrophies back this up, so I have updated the birth year User:Dark Lord of the Sith Revan

Andrew Lewis, in his essay in Eleanor of Aquitaine: Lord and Lady, cites the only near-contemporary source for Eleanor's birthdate that I am aware exists. Fragmentum genealogicum ducum Normanniae et Angliae regum dates from early fourteenth century Limoges, and contains copies of material from earlier sources. The relevent passage is: MCXXXVI. quinto idus aprilis quod tunc fuit in parasceue obiit Willelmus palatinus comes pictauensis, ultimus dux acquitanie rehnquens Iudovico francorum regi (In April 1136, on Good Friday, William count of Poitou and the last Duke of Aquitaine died at St. James in Galicia, leaving his daughter Eleanor, aged thirteen years, whom he had begotten by the sister of the viscount of Chatellerault, to Louis, King of France). As Lewis notes, this manuscript mistakenly places William X's death in 1136, instead of the correct date of 1137, but this may be a reflection of the tradition in Limoges of reckoning the year from Easter. If this data is correct, then Eleanor's year of birth was 1124. Missi 22:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

1124 seems to be the most frequently used date, as well, or at least one of them. This seems a good date to use. 23:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I really think that we should give a range, instead of a date. I mean we don't know when she was born so we should give the most information possible, which is that the most likely range is 1122-1125. At the very least I am going to add a circa to the birth date. hdstubbs

I think the birthdate must be in 1224, as it seems most sensible. If it is not 1224, the next most obivous date is 1222. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Wolf (talk • contribs) 04:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

mrb: I have been through the sources and they list only 1122 and 1124. The 1124 reference comes from Limoges stating she was married at age 13. (Ralf Turner, Elizabeth Brown) The 1122 reference comes from a backdate reference that said she died at age 82 in 1204. (from memory, can't recall the citation). The 1124 dating seems more plausible. Until other sources are found scholarship demands: Born 1122/1124. Markbeaulieu (talk) 22:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I notice that...

Eleanor outlived most or all of her children that she had from her second husband, Henry II of England (all except for Princess Leonora and John of course.) and as I had pointed that out- somebody should edited this kind of stuff in a trivia section or part of her later life section of this article sometime. And do you agree with me about this? (And any I did some research while looking up her second husband's wiki article because of this.) Also did she had any children from her first husband, Louis VI of France ,or not? (And if any of them outlived her or not.) And Thanks for answering if you ever may.

Eleanor had two children by Louis, both girls, with is possibly one of the reasons for the annulment. I've had trouble finding the names of them.

The names are Marie and Alix. I don't have a source that I can name though, you'll have to look it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.7.16.103 (talk) 04:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Marie and Alix were the names of the two children born to Eleanor and Louis VII of France. With the annulment in 1152, the princesses were awarded to their father, where they were raised at court. Eleanor outlived both of these daughters (and in fact all but two of her ten children). For good information on the subject, try Amy Kelly's "Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four Kings" or Marion Meade's "Eleanor of Aquitaine: A Biography." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.84.86 (talk) 19:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Consanguinity

The article says "On 21 March the four archbishops, with the approval of Pope Eugene, granted an annulment due to consanguinity within the fourth degree" but unless they have a closer ancestor than Robert II, then it is further than this. I believe your first cousin is considered fourth degree.

The details of their familial relationship were not important--consanguity was just a respectable excuse for the annulment, so the details may not have been important to the Pope.

The 4th degree is correct. In canon law, you ascend(count up) until the closest common progenitor. Louis VII's is the descendant of Robert II of France in four degrees. Eleanor is the descendant of Robert II in five degrees. Thus they are 3rd cousins once removed. When you here 1st cousins are considered fourth degree, that's civil law. In civil law, you ascend to the common ancestor and then descend(count down) back to the other person in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.0.136.172 (talk) 18:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Historical fiction?

The ebook by Robert Fripp appears to be historical fiction, as is the "portrait" by Duncan Long I guess. Descriptions of these didn't seem to belong where they were placed; in addition they constituted an advertising link to the editor's own website, which Wikipedia doesn't like. I have tried to sort this out while retaining the links, which I think are useful. Comments welcomed. Andrew Dalby 15:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Troubadours

Shouldn't this article mention her sponsorship of troubadours more? Brutannica 00:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence for any sponsorship at all save for a few references in Bernart de Ventadorn and their interpretation by Uc de Saint Circ in Bernart's vida. She was not a patron of troubadours and never figured much in their work, far less than her father, grandfather, husband, or sons. I have seen more serious reference to the possibility of Cercamon being patronised at Louis VII's court than for any troubadour being patronised by Eleanor. Sadly, it's all legend. Srnec (talk) 02:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Mind presenting a bit of evidence for that? That directly contradicts pretty much every book I've read on Eleanor.--96.26.229.154 (talk) 01:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

There was Jaufre Rudel of Blaye who certainly marched in Eleanor's 300, and died during the 2nd Crusade. Markbeaulieu (talk) 22:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Why

...Is this article so full of errors? Some points - such as William asking Louis VI to marry Eleanor to Louis VII - are understandable (I hope) - different sources will say different things. But some of the errors are - or were - just stupid. For example, that line that the French made a bad decision to camp in a lush valley, were attacked and a lot massacred, and Geoffrey of Anjou - Eleanor's vassal and supposed lover - was blamed: is two parts confusion, one part garbage. The valley reference is a confusion between an encampment in a fertile valley near Ephesus - at which point they were attacked but won - and the attack during the crossing of Mount Cadmos - at which the French WERE massacred in large numbers. Geoffrey of Anjou? First off, he wasn't Eleanor's vassal, he was Louis' vassal. Anjou was never subject to Aquitaine. Second of all, he wasn't even on that Crusade - he was too busy guarding his newly conquered territory of Normandy. In fact, Geoffrey Plantagenet had in this article been confused with Geoffrey de Rancon - who WAS on the Crusade, WAS a vassal to Eleanor, and WAS blamed for the attack. So why have these stupid errors been allowed? Michaelsanders 17:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia allows users to make errors. It also allows other users to correct them, so why not do that? -- preferably citing an authority for any assertions that might be thought controversial. Andrew Dalby 11:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm using 'Eleanor of Aquitaine' by Marion Meade, which I don't think is controversial. As it is, though, it is very depressing that a historical article would have such a low accuracy rating (and there have been others that I edited only yesterday which took a rather disappointing attitude to accuracy). Michaelsanders 14:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

comment

Apologies if I'm adding my comment incorrectly - this is my first attempt and I don't have much time to figure it out. I just wanted to draw your attention to the line below the heading "Marriage to Henry II of England", where it refers to "Geoffrey of Anjou (brother of Henry, Count of Anjou and Duke of Normandy)". As is made clear later in the same section, Geoffrey of Anjou was Henry's father - not his brother.

Warm regards and thank you for making this contribution.

Alistair 27.03.2007

Henry II of England also had a brother called Geoffrey. That Geoffrey aspired to marry Eleanor. Thus, he features in this article. Michael Sanders 14:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for making that clear. I stand corrected.

Alistair 30.03.2007

Eleanor, Duchess of Guienne

I have found a number of references to "Eleanor, Duchess of Guienne" but I don't find that reference in the main article. Is this an oversight? LH 08:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Guienne is an alternative name for Aquitaine?

Taxation in England under Eleanor

I don't believe that the article offers enough information on eleanors efforts to raise the ransom demanded for the release of her eldest son, Richard the Lionheart.

The story of Robin Hood has the country being heavily taxed under the tyranny of Prince John, while the king was away, and about to return from the Crusades. John was planning to Usurp the throne, and indeed, offered the captor of the king 80,000 marks to postpone his release (which his captor refused). Eleanor meanwhile raised 150,000 marks for his release, which was duly granted.

As such, who was in fact responsible for the percieved tyranny and taxation attributed to John? Where did Eleanor raise that money from, and how. What was the relation between Johns tyranny and Eleanors rule as queen? Did they play an equal part in the heavy burden of the english people in historical fact? Crimsone 13:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm i wish somone would write more about her personal life sheeeesh ..... im supposed to make a power point on her.... and i need some info on her personal life ~kkristin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.182.79 (talk) 17:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dercervian

"Their spirits were buoyed on Christmas Eve — when they chose to camp in the lush Dercervian valley near Ephesus, they were ambushed by a Turkish detachment; the French proceeded to slaughter this detachment and appropriate their camp." What on earth is Dercervian?? Are you making up words? Jxre~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.42.13 (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

External link suggestion

Lost History-Lady EleanorTokarski21 (talk) 15:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine

What are the possibilities of having this article named Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine? That's the right title according to the naming conventions, but it seems that the X of Y format is preffered for a queen consort even if she was a sovereign. However, I think that X of Y format reduces them to the rank of a consort, when in fact Eleanor was also a sovereign.Surtsicna (talk) 18:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say slim-to-none, given that "Eleanor of Aquitaine" is the predominant term used in English-language secondary sources, by an overwhelming margin. We should be descriptivist first here, and prescriptivist second. Choess (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Eleanor of Aquitaine seems to be the proper title. Since she was sovereign of her own lands, she should be at Name of Place, like her father William X of Aquitaine or her descendant Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. Name, Duchess of Place seems to be for vassal titles where the Duchess/Duke is subordinate to and part of a kingdom, like, say, the modern Sarah, Duchess of York. While you could argue during her marriages, her power was subservient to her husbands, before the marriage to Louis and after Henry's death, she was sovereign in her own right. Name aside, she was one heck of a woman! (I read the Weir biography last week). --- Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 04:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The current title is the fitting one, given that she is almost exclusively called "Eleanor of Aquitaine" in English. But reasons end there - to base the article title on the supposed fact that she was sovereign and not a vassal falls apart when one considers that the Duke/Duchess of Aquitaine and the Count/Countess of Poitou were vassals of the King of France (whereas Sarah, Duchess of York, of course is not a vassal of anyone). She was ruler in her own right of Aquitaine and Poitou - being heiress to her father - but she was never sovereign in the modern sense. Of the figures involved, only the Kings of France and England (and the latter only in respect of England) were sovereign rulers. Deposuit (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Eleanor was never a sovereign in her own right. She was Queen through marriage and acted as regent on behalf of Richard and John. --Ckarsiyaka (talk) 13:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

She was Duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. Surtsicna (talk) 15:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Coinage

Coin of Aleanor of Aquitaine.

Here's a coin of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Feel free to insert it in the article.PHG (talk) 06:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Inserted! Could you edit the caption and say something about it (when it was minted, what does the inscription say or at least where it's placed now)? Surtsicna (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The coin is now located in the Monnaie de Paris. For the inscription or mint date, I don't have secure information at this point. Cheers PHG (talk) 18:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Images

As far as I can tell, many of the pictures referenced on this page are inaccurate or ill-captioned. The only known contemporary images of Eleanor are her tomb, and the mural at the very top of the article (which in itself is not completely verified, but most scholars agree that it is her).

The image of her wedding to Louis is actually two images; Eleanor marrying in 1137 (left scene) and Louis departing on the Second Crusade, both of which are a drawing from Les Chroniques de Saint-Denis, circa late 14th century.

The second image of Eleanor and Louis praying, I believe is an image of Louis with his third wife. I cannot find the original source for this image (which leads me to doubt its veracity), but in a very similar one, Louis is shown to be holding a son, which only his third wife succeeded in producing.

In fact, this page [1] makes it clear that it is Louis's third wife, not Eleanor.

Perhaps a section of her page could be created that deals with the issue of images; for one of the most powerful women in Christendom, relatively few contemporary artifacts, descriptions, and images have survived. This is briefly touched on in the main article, but I believe further discussion could be warranted. Headtrip honey (talk) 13:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to edit and improve the article! Surtsicna (talk) 21:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Praise to all

What a beautiful article! Praise to all of the editors! Mugginsx (talk) 17:00, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Eleanor's Picture

The picture of Eleanor for this picture is not Eleanor but her husband Henry II. I would fix it myself but I'm new and not sure how to, so if someone else could that would be great! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angevin1216 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Accessibility

This is a most useful and informative article but the lede uses several terms that are not widely known. Knowledge of UK titles etc. requires more explanation. Could it be made more accessible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.129.118 (talk) 12:18, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? Which terms do you find puzzling? Dimadick (talk) 04:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Consort titles in succession boxes

A consort can't wield actual legitimate and de-jure power unless she is a regent or succeed after her husband and becomes queen regnant, in Catherine I of Russia's case. There is no rule that consort titles can't be listed in succession boxes, and you are the only one complaining. The titles have been here since 8 October 2010 without anyone deleting it or reverting. You are the first one to delete it. The picture on the seal listed her titles. If succession boxes should reflect actual titles that people ruled or had power by. We can remove all succession boxes from child kings and puppet kings cause they had absolutely no power, right? Eleanor was recognized as Henry II's female counterpart in all his realm even his holdings in France. I even made three distinct and seperate titles squished into one single succession section rather than three. You should be happy that I didn't list Duchess of Gascony, Countess of Nantes, and Lady of Ireland. I didn't created List of Norman consorts, List of Angevin consorts, and List of consorts of Maine for nothing. You'll feel equally offended and angry if a user keeps removing all the links to articles you have spent hours creating and rendering them worthless. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 09:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Roman catholic?

Is it strictly speaking correct to say that her religion was Roman Catholic? Before the reformation the church in the west was simply identified as Christian or catholic in the broadest sense. The identification as a roman catholic only really emerged post-reformation. What do others think?Contaldo80 (talk) 21:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It is "strictly speaking" correct to call her Catholic, because 1. there were other Christian denominations around at the time (e.g. Greek Orthodox, maybe one can also count in heresies likes the Valdensians or even the Cathars), 2. the church she belonged to was the Catholich Church, which did not only emerge "post-reformation" - just because Protestantism only developed later, doesn't mean that everyone who went before has to be neutered. Deposuit (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Catholic yes but not Roman Catholic. Many "Protestant" reformers actually saw themselves as the heir to catholicism. Incidentally the cathars were well gone by these period after intense persecution by the established church. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Contaldo80, incidentally, the Cathars were not gone at all by this period. Please review your history before you comment. Regards. Steve... Stevenmitchell (talk) 20:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

To be historically correct, Eleanor's faith shifted. It might be best to call her a Nazarene. It was a word of the times. Like her forefathers, she opposed Latin Popes with choices of her own. Her era was before cardinal election. There were Popes and so-called Antipopes and their contest was bloody. Under Louis' excommunication, Eleanor saw the elimination of three popes in short span of years. Celestine halted the excommunications against the royal family which had the effect of ending the French civil war in the succession of Champagne. She clearly understood the difference between spirituality and political power as she did love from marriage. Recall that the Latin Schism was only 100 years old. Before that were five "world popes" of equal weight and the Greek Christians dominated. She saw her father side with distant Norman kin Roger of Sicily in support of their pope, as did her uncle Raymond of Antioch who tolerated Greek Christianity. King Roger virtually owned the Mediterranean with his fleet, so inclusion of Greek Christianity was prudent to support the vast trade across the sea. In her young life, her realm included not only Nazarene Catholics, but Henricans of Lausanne, the Waldensians of Lyons, and the Cathari, called Good Men at the time. On the Second Crusade after a catastrophic failure of the Latin church, she got a serious education on the efficacy of Nazarene faith. In Byzantium, Antioch, and Jerusalem she encountered Greek Patriarchs, if you will, the Greek Popes. By the time she remarries to Henri II who had such a temper as to allow the Archbishop to be killed, it is safe to say that Eleanor had a more open mind about the righteousness of "the true faith." So what to call her? The writing of the times mentions Nazarenes more than Catholics. Christian was a new term used in Antioch and by heretics. One of the great cries of the Henrican heretic was "Let there be only Christians and their Christ.” Then she had her chapel faith. At the end of her life Eleanor returned to the Abbey of Fontevrault of her youth. It was a franchise given to her grandfather by King Louis the 6th (her husband's father), and not ordained by the church. Founded by unconventional Robert Arbrissel, he like Henry of Lausanne (Henrican) and Peirre Vaudes (Waldensian), were poor, itinerant, charismatic preachers. Robert created a dual order ruled by an Abbess. When Arbrissel was advanced to Sainthood for his good works, specifically in saving of orphans, the church discounted his method, that male and female could live together to the point of sleeping in the same space (as his thousands of orphans had in the wild before the Abbey.) Robert was denounced, but his beliefs were sustained in a number of Fontevrault franchises. When Eleanor passed in 1204 the Abbey was reformed during the Cathar inquisition. "Non-believers" were eradicated by the Catholics. So Eleanor's spirituality is a question. She worked with the Church of Rome publicly and supported new cathedrals. Her personal chapel faith made her a Fontevrist. To call her Roman Catholic ...? Not sure about that. This is my second cut at the research. My apologies for no citations at this point. Markbeaulieu (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC) Markbeaulieu (talk) 23:00, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Eleanor's "Trade"?

I would like to know what Eleanor's "trade" was. I am not to sure what that is supposed to mean but if anyone happens to know the answer, please assist me.

Thank You! Mary — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.21.237.209 (talk) 14:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Place of death

Her place of death is given as Poitiers, but the article says "Eleanor then returned to Fontevraud where she took the veil as a nun. Eleanor died in 1204 and was entombed in Fontevraud Abbey". So did she die at Fontevraud or did she travel to Poitiers, die, and have her body returned to Fontevraud? Jwes44 (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Larousse encyclopedia gives it as 31 March 1204 in Fontevraud. Eric ^talk 03:39, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Eleanor of Aquitaine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Help. someone has distorted at least the first paragraph in the CONFLICT section on Eleanor of Aquitaine. someone please edit that section. thank you. allison

Last edited at 04:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Kidnapping

I read this

both Theobald V, Count of Blois, and Geoffrey, Count of Nantes attempted to marry Eleanor of Aquitaine—then the most eligible woman in Europe—by kidnapping her. Cleverly, Eleanor managed to evade them, and afterwards elected to get married very quickly, not least to thwart these and any future plots.

and browsed to this article to get the low down of what happened. But to my disappointment, the article only says:

As these were the days when kidnapping an heiress was seen as a viable option for obtaining a title, William dictated a will on the very day he died that bequeathed his domains to Eleanor and appointed King Louis VI of France as her guardian.

This reads very abbreviated, almost as if editing has cut out all the details. Questions the text ought to answer:

1. So the idea was that with the King as guardian, nobody would dare to kidnap the heiress? And that her father held his own death a secret for the same reason?
2. Yet the linked piece names Theobald II as one of the presumptive kidnappers - that can't be a coincidence. (The piece actually says Theobald V, but that can't be right, as he's eight years younger than Eleanor. It must have meant his father)
3. Why even mention the kidnap threat only to then immediately drop the subject?
4. What does it mean when Eleanor "quite cleverly" "evades" them? Or, more importantly, why do we not mention any of this (could it be lack of sources?)

CapnZapp (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

References

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Marriage location

The article states that Eleanor and Henry were wed in Poitiers Cathedral in 1152. The cathedral St. Pierre did not begin construction until 1162 when work was initiated by Eleanor and Henry. (see other sources) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.148 (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

That's the current cathedral. There were others there before it (the French Wikipedia has a better chronology). Adam Bishop (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

She was not Norman...

Marriage to a Norman does not make you Norman. It DOES make you whatever consort of whatever title that spouse might have, but it does NOT make you Norman. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:05, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

She was Norman as much as Henry was Aquitanian. Surtsicna (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Is Henry in a category for Aquitainians? Ealdgyth - Talk 15:08, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Strange question. He is includeed in Category:Dukes of Aquitaine. Dimadick (talk) 15:10, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

That makes him a Duke of Aquitaine. That does not make him Aquitainian, as the medieval people would have thought of it. They would have called him Angevin, if anything, because he was originally from Anjou. They would not have thought that being Duke of a duchy made someone that ethnicity (which is pretty much only how they thought of people, there isn't really a nationality concept in the middle ages.) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:16, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Category:Dukes of Aquitaine belongs to Category:People from Aquitaine, so yes, Henry is indirectly in that category. I think that is wrong. Not all dukes of Aquitaine were from Aquitaine. Not all dukes of Aquitaine ever saw Aquitaine. Surtsicna (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Conversely, Richard I of England spend most of his 10-year reign outside the Kingdom of England, but he is still one of the Category:English monarchs.Dimadick (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

He was Aquitanian. Jure uxoris Duke of Aquitaine. Dimadick (talk) 15:08, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not convinced by that logic. Does Mary I of England belong to Category:16th-century Spanish women? Does Anne, Queen of Great Britain belong to Category:17th-century Danish women? Surtsicna (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

In Mary I's case, she was one of the Category:Spanish royal consorts. Prince George of Denmark became a naturalized English subject in 1689 (as noted in his article), not the other way around. Dimadick (talk) 15:29, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Still, defining Mary as a 16th-century Spanish woman is as senseless as defining Eleanor as a Norman woman. It is obvious from Eleanor of Aquitaine's name that she was not Norman. George became an English subject, but Anne became a Danish princess. You seem to suggest that titles and ethnicity/nationality are related, so that being an Aquitanian duke would make Henry an Aquitanian man; then surely being a Danish princess would make Anne a Danish woman. But that's a bit crazy, don't you think? Surtsicna (talk) 15:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Not particularly. Since I am Greek, I am kind of used to royals who are princes or princesses of Denmark. See House of Glücksburg. I am just far from certain that Anne was a subject of Frederick IV of Denmark.Dimadick (talk) 16:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Just wanted to weigh in and say Eleanor, and Isabella of Angouleme (where I originally saw this argument) were not Normans by anyone's definition, medieval or modern. I'm not sure any of these categories are particularly useful for people who lived before the concept of nation states. [Excised rant about Wikipedia categories in general] Adam Bishop (talk) 19:03, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

And who is talking about nation states, instead of allegiance to any particular state or sovereign? Dimadick (talk) 19:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Well what does that mean? She was Norman because of "allegiance" to a Norman king? Was Eleanor also a Capetian? Did she stop being Capetian and become Norman? Did she stop being Norman whenever she she was no longer obedient to Henry? (Was Henry even a Norman? As Ealdgyth said, he was Angevin.) Adam Bishop (talk) 15:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

questionable edit

Could a regular please inspect the last edit (Vesper) and readd the birth date formatting and check the other changes, have to go offline. ^Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 00:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Half brothers

The information in this article contradicts the information in the article on Eleanor's father, William X.

This article states: "Her half-brother Joscelin was acknowledged by William X as a son, but not as his heir. The notion that she had another half-brother, William, has been discredited.[9]"

The article on William X states: "He possibly had one natural son, William. For a long time it was thought that he had another natural son called Joscelin and some biographies still erroneously state this fact, but Joscelin has been shown to be the brother of Adeliza of Louvain."

Anyone know which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.155.235.237 (talk) 08:57, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Rumours

It's nice that we all want to think the best of people but why would any not so pleasant rumours from contemporary sources be dismissed as rumours? Did Eleanor have an incestuous relationship with her uncle? Melanie Elizabeth 2021 (talk) 19:55, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I dunno; did she? Or is that a Sharon Kay Penman suggestion, akin to Richard III's dog living to ~30?! 🙃 ——Serial 20:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)