Talk:Dram (unit)

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Drachm and Dram[edit]

I know we're not supposed to change from one spelling to another of words, but in this case the article title does not mesh with the predominant spelling used throughout. Either the article should be retitled drachm (unit), or the usage throughout should be changed to dram. In my experience the drachm spelling for the fluid measure is archaic and current british spelling is also dram. Also, do we have a reliable source to connect the drachm monetary unit to the other units? I'm not sure one article covering all of these is the best way to go. -- cmh 23:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

dram refers to the unit of 1/16 oz avoirdepois 27.34375 grains troy, drachm refers to the unit of 1/8 oz apothecaries (60 grains troy). The use of grains troy is that the grain was a regular division of the ounce (1/480 in the germanic countries, 1/576 in latin countries), and varied as the ounce does. --Wendy.krieger (talk) 11:04, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Am I stupid or...[edit]

Excuse me, for I do come from a place where the decimal system of measurement and currency exists, but this article makes no sense and is poorly explained. Is a dram,

  • The Greek drachm = 4.37 grams.
  • The Roman drachm = 3.41 grams.
  • The unit equivalnt to 1/256 avoirdupois pounds = 2204.62278g/256 = 8.609g NOT 1.771845g (it's actually 453.59237/256 = 1.771. The kg = 2.204622 lb, not the other way around! - wendy)

However in the 'modern units agreed in 1958 it is quoted as;

  • The measure of 875/32 grains = 875 x 0.06479891g / 32 = 1.7718451953125g assuming 7,000 grains per avoirdupois pound
  • The measure of 1/16th ounce, which is 28.349523125g / 16 = 1.7718451953125g assuming avoirdupois ounce

However, it is also then quoted as being equivalent to 3 scruples, or 60 grains

  • Three scruples = 3 x 1.3g = 3.9g (ie; 3.88g)
  • 60 grains = 60 x 0.06479891g = 3.8879346g

In terms of a volume, the conversions appear fine, but if water is used as a basis of standard weight, you'd have a dram equal to;

  • 3.696 691 195 312 5 mL (ie; 3.6966911953125g) in the United States
  • 3.551 632 812 500 0 mL (ie; 3.5516328125g) in the Commonwealth and Ireland.

Neither of these weight matches with the 3.88~g, 1.77~g, or 8.609g weights which can be derived above from the reference measures in the fractions quoted. This seems especially strange for the avoirdupois pound measurements, as a dram cannot be 8.609g for it to be anywhere near a dram in the volumetric measure of fluid (in either the Commonwealth or US Customary units).

So, which is it? It seems that in the USA, especially, weight is defined in avoirdupois pounds and a dram has a weight of 1.77(etc) grams, but it is also quoted in scruples which comes out basically double. Sorta.

Wow, no wonder everyone went metric in the sensible countries!

I throw this open to a much older and archaic person to fix.Rolinator (talk) 04:54, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The apothecaries pound is 5760 grains troy, divided into 12 ounces, 1 oz = 8 drachms, 1 drachm is 3 scruples, a scruple 20 grains. There is also an avoirdepoise system that had a pound, divided into 16 ounces, 1 oz = 16 drams (different spelling), dram = 30 grains avoirdepois. This pound is set to 7000 grains troy, since the medivael tradition is to have jewelers make the standards, or 7680 avoirdepoise grains. The units of different scales were never mixed in use. It is in a way, no different to the AUD = 100 AU cents, and the USD = 100 US cents, which makes four units into two entirely separate scales. --Wendy.krieger (talk) 11:01, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

if water is used as a basis of standard weight - In the apothecary system, wine is used as a basis for standard weight. That's why apothecary measures are historically known as wine measures or apothecary wine measures. Until 1851, apothecaries in London continued to use the Queen Anne wine gallon of 231 cubic inches, even though it had been superseded elsewhere by the imperial gallon. Wine was once classified as medicine. And I'm sorry to hear that your country is so far behind on demetrication. Zyxwv99 (talk) 22:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fluid dram of alcoholic spirits[edit]

Is it true that a dram of alcoholic spirits is always 1.25 fluid ounces or does that ever vary by type and/or locale? 71.198.176.22 (talk) 12:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

At one time physicians in Scotland prescribed the following for "golf arm":
℞ Whis. Scot................. .. 1 dram
Aqua soda vel seltz., ad lib.
At the time it was literally one dram (i.e., 1/8th of an ounce). Now it's usually a lot more, and can be any amount. Zyxwv99 (talk) 03:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Greek drachma[edit]

This doesn't look quite right: The ancient Greek drachm was equivalent to 72 διτάρια (grains of wheat), and 18 κεράτα or κεράτια (seeds of the Carob tree — the root of the word carat).[9]:95 Many 19th-century metrologists liked to speculate about this sort of thing, coming up with all sorts of grand unified theories. First they tried to link everything to the Hebrews and Egyptians, then the Sumerians. The idea of wheat grains, barleycorns, and carob seeds as the foundation of all weight systems was an academic fad of the time. When using 19th-century sources on metrology, it's usually a good idea to double- and triple-check the facts. Also, there were so many different Greek drachmas. Zyxwv99 (talk) 03:06, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken. I can't find a modern source for this information, so I've removed it. TimofKingsland (talk) 05:13, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Modern liquid containers[edit]

§ Unit of volume says

While pharmaceuticals are measured nowadays exclusively in metric units, fluid drams are still used to measure the capacity of pill containers.

Liquid containers too! Apothecaries' system #English-speaking countries says

Apothecaries' measures eventually fell out of use in the U.K. and were officially abolished in 1971. In the U.S., they are still occasionally used, for example with prescribed medicine being sold in four-ounce (℥ iv) bottles.

And I have prescription medicines, both human and feline, with ℥ iv, i.e. "4 apothecaries' ounces", molded into the back of the plastic bottle, and measurement levels of 0-100 milliliters and 0-3 fluid ounces molded into the sides.

I'd put this into the article if I had a WP: Reliable source, but of course with only my own word for it I can't.

--Thnidu (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Order of magnitude error[edit]

This article Missing the decimal after the 3 (ie 3.1 appears as 31) in several places and has unfortunately been copied all over the internet. 174.91.107.238 (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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