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Please Clarify Monophyly of Tineina and Cossina[edit]
Tineina and Cossina each have a link to a source listing the included subfamilies. Neither Section clade (as described there) is compatible with the clades here called Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, and Macrolepidoptera (as described here) - as far as I can tell they are two completely different, mutually exclusive classifications. If Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, and Macrolepidoptera are monophyletic then Tineina and Cossina are both paraphyletic with respect to Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, and Macrolepidoptera. "Obstecomera and Macrolepidoptera are other examples of Ditrysia's subclades." does not tell me anything helpful. Please clarify the situation and how these two taxonomic concepts relate to each other. Dates and authors are needed! If they are separate it would be much better to have a separate article section for each classification scheme or cladogram, instead of mashing them together into one paragraph. If they're meant to be compatible then their contents need to be clarified. 2601:441:4900:A6E0:0:0:0:543D (talk) 01:59, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've done my best to compare which superfamilies have been placed in which clades (using the cited Wiktionary page for Tineina, and Wikipedia for the others). Some Wiki articles say Macrolepidoptera is not monophyletic and that most of the Macrolepidopteran moths have been reclassified as Macroheterocera, which isn't mentioned in this article. As far as I can see the Ditrysian superfamilies are classified like this:
Caption text
Superfamily
Nested Classification 1
Nested Classification 2
Heart Classification
Alucitoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
not classified
Axioidea/Cimelioidea
Macrolepidoptera (as Axioidea or Drepanoidea)
not classified
Cossina (as Cimelioidea)
Bombycoidea
Macrolepidoptera
Macroheterocera
Cossina
Calliduloidea
Macrolepidoptera
not classified
Cossina
Castnoidea
not classified
not classified
Cossina
Choreutoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
not classified
Copromorphoidea/Carposinoidea
Obtectomera
Obtectomera
Tineina
Cossoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Cossina
Drepanoidea
Macrolepidoptera
Macroheterocera
Cossina
Epermenioidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
not classified
Galacticoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Tineina
Gelechioidea
Ditrysia
Ditrysia
Tineina
Geometroidea
Macrolepidoptera
Macroheterocera
Cossina
Gracillarioidea
Ditrysia
Ditrysia
not classified
Hedyloidea
Macrolepidoptera, Rhopalocera
Rhopalocera
not classified
Hesperioidea
Macrolepidoptera, Rhopalocera
Rhopalocera
not classified
Hyblaeoidea
Obtectomera
Obtectomera
not classified
Immoidea
Obtectomera
Obtectomera
Tineina
Lasiocampoidea
Macrolepidoptera
Macroheterocera
not classified
Mimallonoidea
Macrolepidoptera
Macroheterocera
not classified
Noctuoidea
Macrolepidoptera
Macroheterocera
Cossina
Papilionoidea
Macrolepidoptera, Rhopalocera
Rhopalocera
Cossina
Pterophoroidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Tineina
Pyraloidea
Obtectomera
Obtectomera
Tineina
Schreckensteinoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
not classified
Sesioidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Cossina
Simaethistoidea
Ditrysia
Ditrysia
Tineina
Sphingoidea
Macrolepidoptera (as Bombycoidea)
Macroheterocera (as Bombycoidea)
Cossina (as Sphingoidea)
Thyroidea
Obtectomera
Obtectomera
not classified
Tineoidea
Ditrysia
Ditrysia
Tineina
Tortricoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Cossina
Uranioidea
Macrolepidoptera (as Geometroidea)
Macroheterocera (as Geometroidea)
Cossina (as Uranioidea)
Urodoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
not classified
Whalleyanoidea
Obtectomera
Obtectomera
Tineina
Yponomeutoidea
Ditrysia
Ditrysia
Tineina
Zygaenoidea
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
Ditrysia, Apoditrysia
not classified
68.46.84.245 (talk) 03:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC) (I'm the same person, my ISP changed while I typed)[reply]
Same person here again. I looked at the source for Cossina, Encyclopedia of Entomology, on Google Books. This source also includes Tineina and adds a couple subfamilies not mentioned in wiktionary (which I'll add to my table above). It does not mention Apoditrysia, Obtectomera, or Macroheterocera. It only mentions Macrolepidoptera to imply it isn't a natural clade. So it looks like this classification and the Apoditrysia > Obtectomera > Macrolepidoptera classification are competing theories. Unfortunately I couldn't find the authorial source for Cossina and Tineina. 2601:441:4900:A6E0:0:0:0:543D (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They seem to be two competing classifications, both originating in 1998.
The "32 superfamily" classification (actually 33 superfamilies listed) in the article on Butterflies and Moths by John Heppner in Encyclopedia of Entomology seems to be an update of the one by John Heppner in Classification of Lepidoptera. Part 1: Introduction. I can't find an online copy of the source, but this archived page claims to use that classification. On page 629 of the Encyclopedia of Entomology, another recent classification with 46 superfamilies is mentioned.
The 46 superfamily classification seems to be that used by Niels Kristensen and Andrzej Skalski in the Handbook of Zoology (Volume 1, 1998). This was revised slightly in Appendix 1 of the second volume in 2007 (adding a superfamily and moving a couple) and can also be found in Kristensen et al (2007).
The latter classfication with the Apoditrysia > Obtectomera > Macrolepidoptera classification seems more consistent with molecular data (see van Nieukerken et al 2011) and Mitter et al 2017), although there is some shuffling of superfamilies which led van Nieukerken et al 2011 to introduce Macroheterocera for Macrolepidoptera (see note 59).
As for changing the article. It would be simplest to remove Tineina and Cossina to avoid the confusion. although we are supposed to cover alternative classifications. This one seems to have fallen into disuse but I not entirely sure about this. — Jts1882 | talk 16:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]