Talk:Devon van Oostrum

British Nationality

This basketball player does not have the British Nationality according to British Nationality Law. The claim that "he is British because he played for a British team" does not make sense at all. There is no ref confirming his dual nationality and he was born in The Netherlands to Dutch parents, therefore making him Dutch - not British. I talked to another experienced editor on Wikipedia and he agrees that it is strange to assign a nationality purely based on which sports team somebody has played for. My edits are not vandalism either according to him. Please do not be hostile by reverting my edits and by threatening me that you will block me Bozalegenda. This should be discussed on the talk page.--Danteday (talk) 15:50, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

This refers to my recent discussion with Danteday on the Teahouse, in this edit. Wikipedia:Vandalism says: On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia. Describing well-intentioned edits, particularly ones for which a reason has been supplied, as vandalism, can be considered to be a personal attack. Please don't do this again. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Nationality

It seems that Bozalegenda, and Danteday are engaged in an edit war over the nationality of van Oostrum, reverting back and forth between Dutch and British/Dutch in the lead sentence and the infobox. Do not do this. Such edit-warrign is a reason to block both parties, regardless of who reverted first, or who is correct. I am not going to do that at this time, but continued back&forth reverts will cause me to issue a block.

As I understand it, Bozalegenda maintains that because he plays on an English national team, van Oostrum should be taken to be partly British. Danteday maintains that van Oostrum was born in the Netherlands, and we have no source saying that he obtained British citizenship, and he should therefore be described as dutch. Have I correctly understood your arguments?

MOS:BLPLEAD says: The opening paragraph should usually provide context. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. This issue should be settled with that guideline firmly in mind. Can we discuss the matter further? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:05, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying the situation, DESiegel. The argument that "Oostrum was born in the Netherlands, and we have no source saying that he obtained British citizenship, and he should therefore be described as Dutch" is correctly summarising my reason why he should be listed as 'Dutch'. Also, Van Oostrum does not play for a British team anymore according to the opening paragraph that Bozalegenda wants to keep. He only went to school in England and started at a minor British team, but then quickly moved to teams in other countries. I don't see how he can then be listed as 'British' if he is known to play for other countries and he does not even have the British nationality (there is no ref supporting the claim that he is a dual national).--Danteday (talk) 16:29, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Bozalegenda, do you have any comment to make on this situation?

Danteday, I see that you have again reverted to "Dutch". Please, neither of you make any further reverts until discussion proceeds further on this matter. When i said that your previous change was not vandalism (and it wasn't) I did not say that it was acceptable for you to revert again. It wasn't. I suppose that you made that revert before you say my comments about edit warring above. But now you are both on notice. When a change has once been reverted, that is the time to move to the relevant talk page and discuss, not persist in reverting. Please read Bold, Revert, Discuss. While that is an essay, not a guideline or policy, it commands very wide support. It is usually a good idea to follow it. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 18:38, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Mkdbasket2014, Frietjes, Afasmit I see that you have made significant edits to this article in the past. Would any of you care to comment on the nationality issue now? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 18:43, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Without condoning edit warring or false accusations of vandalism, I think Bozalegenda has a case. See this ("Devon Van Oostrum has joined MZT Skopje for the remainder of the season where he will play alongside fellow Brit Dan Clark"), this, this ("British point guard Devon Van Oostrum"), etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:03, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The "best British basketball player of his generation", no less! Cordless Larry (talk) 19:15, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I wrote the balance of the post below before Cordless Larry found those cites, so I'm going to post what I wrote before those points changed the picture to whatever extent they do.

The issue is interesting; not something I've thought about much before. Sort of thinking out loud: Nationality and citizenship are not always the same thing. The MOS section DES found (thank you! – and for setting this up so that discussion can commence with structure and a good framework) implies that nationality, however, is usually taken to correspond to citizenship, or at least where the person has or does chiefly reside at least for many years, though it leaves open variance by its use of "most".

I think a lead dictionary definition for nationality is also a useful point of departure: "the status of belonging to a particular nation, whether by birth or naturalization" (We also have an article at British nationality law.)

The issue of being notable for association with a particular country from the MOS doesn't seem applicable because he has played for many teams, and only one year for Britain. This last also raises the reductio that Danteday posted about above: If the position of Bozalegenda is that his nationality is British because (quoting from this edit summary) "he plays for British national team, then he is also Brtiish [sic]", then an absurdity occurs when taking that concept to its natural conclusion: based on the article text, and applying that logic, his nationality is also: Spanish, Croatian, Finnish, Greek and Macedonian.

So, what are we left with?
 • His birth (Dutch, with no British association);
 • His residence (not Britain and where he only lived during his college years, which is usually thought of specifically as a non-permanent foray abroad for a limited time, plus one year before moving on eight years ago);
 • Whether he was naturalized as a British citizen (we have no affirmative indication this occurred at all, much less through a reliable source, and so we must to assume he was not).
 • Lastly, it seems to me that self-identification goes a long way on matters like this. We use that, for example, for religious affiliation, if shown through a reliable source. We have no indication here he self-identifies as British.

So, barring some new information, I don't think listing his nationality as British can be supported.

Now, we have the sources Larry found. Adding them to the mix, I'm just not sure, but sources are for me often the final arbiter. But, I don't really understand what they mean here. They have implications for the issue, but it's indirect. Does the British reporter knows something about his actual citizenship status we don't? Is the second link mistaken or was he really born in Sheffield and the article here is wrong when it says he was born in the Netherlands? And did the first reporter say what he did ("fellow Brit") because he looked him up in that database first? Was he actually naturalized? All I have now are questions.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

References

I think there's an additional complication when it comes to sportspeople, that depending on the rules of the particular sport, someone might not necessarily need citizenship of a country to represent that country in international competition, but once they do play for a national team, they will tend to be described in sources as a national of that country. The sources I found describe him as British because he plays for the GB national team (and might also be a citizen, but they don't confirm that either way). Cordless Larry (talk) 20:14, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Fuhghettaboutit, you write that "based on the article text, and applying that logic, his nationality is also: Spanish, Croatian, Finnish, Greek and Macedonian", but he hasn't played for those national teams, has he (just clubs in those countries)? Playing for more than one national team is unusual in any sport, and playing for that number would be unheard of. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, if the article is correct that his dad has worked at the University of Sheffield since 1995, then he would likely have lived in the UK from age two. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. Maybe the issue is that I am not following what his sports affiliations actually are (and I am a sports ignoramus). First, though the term "national team" has been said a few times here and in edit summaries, the article itself never uses the term. It says "van Oostrum started his basketball career with British basketball league club Sheffield Sharks in 2008" followed by: "In May 2009, van Oostrum moved to Spanish ACB team Caja Laboral". So my understanding was that he played one year for a British team and then Spain (and then others—one year with a British team, eight years ago). If he grew up from age two, that certainly lends more support, though it really would be nice to squelch the issue of whether he was actually born in England (as your second cite indicates) If he was, I think that would put the issue to rest (and once found, added to the article of course).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I think your sports knowledge is the issue here, Fuhghettaboutit! There are club teams (e.g. Sheffield) and national teams (e.g. Great Britain). Club teams play in national and sometimes continental leagues. National teams go to the Olympics, World Cup, etc. Regardless what club a player plays for, in whatever country, they can be selected to play for their country (usually of citizenship). Hence, to use an example from a different sport, Cristiano Ronaldo plays for club side Real Madrid in Spain, and for the Portuguese national team, because he's Portuguese. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:36, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

(e/c) Aha:

"...landed 24-year old British guard Devon Van Oostrum (190-93, agency: Octagon Europe). He has a double citizenship as he also holds Dutch passport."

"Devon has dual citizenship from the Netherlands and the United Kingdom."

Shall we put this to bed?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

That clinches it. Good find, Fuhghettaboutit. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for the discussion and education. I've added the detail and so reverted the removals of British.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Van Oostrum played for British national team, so there must be British nationality. Thats how we do in all sports articles. Just look at hundreds of other sports articles.--Bozalegenda (talk) 00:52, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I do not believe that it is invariably true that someone playing on a country's national team is a national of that country, Bozalegenda, although it is usually true, and has been proved to be true in this case. A source that specifically addresses the question of nationality or citizenship is a very good idea if the matter is in any doubt, or where the person was born in one country but plays for another. Fortunately, such a source was found in this case. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 01:55, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Exact date of birth

May i ask why, Bozalegenda, in this edit you restored uncited challenged content, that, according to WP:DOB should not be present unless it is directly cited, and it is shown to have been widely published outside Wikipedia, or else published by the subject himself or with his apparent consent. I believe that WP:DOB is quite clear about this. Is there any reason why this article should be an exception? WP:DOB is part of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, and so is policy, and a policy of very high importance indeed. It should not be ignored trivially. Indeed restoration of content prohibited by BLP policy is subject to reversion without discussion and without being limited by the 3RR. This also falls under WP:BURDEN. I am not reverting instantly here, But I would very much like to hear why you restored this information. Did you notice the link to WP:DOB in my edit summary? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 22:12, 25 June 2017 (UTC) @Bozalegenda: DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 22:12, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Mate i'm editing here basketball articles for many years, and this is first time to see to someone remove birthdate from article... i dont understand why did you do it? There are external links where you can see that this birthdate is correct. Should I add a reference in lead for birthdate?--Bozalegenda (talk) 15:46, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

That's what is required by WP:VERIFY (and specifically WP:BURDEN), Bozalegenda. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok I will add ref, but this is first time for me to see that we need to add ref for birthdate.--Bozalegenda (talk) 16:05, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The policy is not as fully followed as it should be, Bozalegenda but I routinely remove exact birth dates from BLP articles whenever I see them. Remember that it is not enough to have a source that shows that the date is correct, it must be shown to have been widely published outside Wikipedia, or else published by or with the agreement of the subject, such as on the subject's own personal web site. Please do read WP:DOB, if you haven't. Why do you want the exact date included, anyway? It is not really encyclopedic -- the nyear gives all the context needed in almost all cases.

Also, when an experienced editor removes content citing a policy page, you might want to check that page and explain on the talk page why you think the content belongs if you choose to revert. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 20:19, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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