Talk:Desmond Tutu/Archive 3

Article's subject matter are out of relative proportion

Firtsly let me introduce myself and any bias that may go along with it. I am a South African Anglican (admitedly I attend chruch only a few times a year) that lives not far from Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

I have read the article and the above debate. The problem with the article is not one of neutrality but one of relevance and proportionality

• This is an article about Desmond Tutu. It is not an article about the the Israeli / Palestine conflict
• Apart from his religious duties, Archbishop Desmond Tutu's life was centered about his battle against apartheid. He won the Nobel Peace Prixe for the activism.
• Second to that has been his run-ns with the new SA government
• Only after that has been his comments about Israel.
• Yet the artcile spends more time on homosexuality and Israel and Palestine than it does on his battle against apartheid or his religious duty. It is not relevant that those matters are important to you. What is relevant is what was and is important to the Archbishop.
• It is not relevant whether the comments about Israel are neutral. The article is unbalanced.
• This is an encyclopedia and not a platform for debate. We should be describing the Archbishop and the matters that were closest to his heart. The Palestie Israel debate belongs in another article (except for Desmonds opinion on the matter)

Therefore I propose

• We expand the anti apartheid part of the article
• We expand his debates with the current SA government
• We expand the content on his religious career
• We slightly reduce his comments on homsexuality
• We slightly reduce his comments on the Israel conflict

None of the reduced content needs to be lost. It can get moved to sub-articles

Please let me know what you think. I have not been part of this edit-war so don't paint me with any brush.

The debate and edit war demeans the great man that the Archbishop clearly is.

Ask yourself the question. Does his battle with apartheid describe the man? Or does his comments about Israel or homosexuality describe the man? Please lets get off out soapboxes

--Tiucsib 22:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure how much the article has changed in 4 years, but I think this is still/again a problem. I think this can be incorporated in other articles and linked to in the related articles section, eg. Israel and the apartheid analogy#By_South_Africans. If there is too much information, and this is going to be an ongoing problem, possibly create a short stub? Bzzzzzzzzster 18:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bzzzzzzzzster (talk • contribs)

I agree

This always happens because there are more writers for provokative subjects. What should the new article be named? "Desmond Tutu on the Israel/Palestine conflict". Could it be linked with other such articles? Once this is done the neutrality tag can be removed. Dejo 16:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not good practice to "hide" the badly written or non-neutral material of an article in a sub-article. This article shouldn't be split up so soon. If Tutu's views on Israel isn't an as important topic, it should just be a modest section. —msikma (user, talk) 23:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I have been adding additional information to the other sections under Tutu's political views, however the section on Israel is still out of proportion to the rest - especially if one considers that Tutu has actually spent little time campaigning for Palestine etc. Therefore I'm streamlining the section removing comments such as:

"Marv Davidov, an adjunct professor at the university's Justice and Peace Studies program, was quoted as saying "As a Jew who experienced real anti-Semitism as a child, I'm deeply disturbed that a man like Tutu could be labeled anti-Semitic and silenced like this. I deeply resent the Israeli lobby trying to silence any criticism of its policy. It does a great disservice to Israel and to all Jews." The school's president, Rev. Dennis Dease, denied that a lobbying effort had been conducted against Tutu, and was quoted as saying, "I was under no pressure from any pro-Israeli groups or individuals, nor did I receive any requests from them to refrain from inviting Archbishop Tutu to speak."...On October, 10, 2007, Rev. Dease reversed his decision in a letter to students and faculty". I feel that these comments do not add to the article and are unnecessary. --Cazo3788 (talk) 20:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

While we are talking about neutrality, I don't understand why there is a section "Protests against Tutu in the USA" in this article that serves to mitigate (or demonize, depending on how you look at it) Tutu's political activities. There aren't any similar sections in the other parts of the article (i.e. there is no section under "China" that cites any response of the PRC government towards Tutu's political activities) and if there is, does this mean we will put a counterpoint to every item in this article? Thanks. Satanstorm (talk) 16:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Awards?

What about an awards section in this article - he has received many other awards both in South Africa and nationally than the Nobel Peace Prize. --Cazo3788 (talk) 21:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The awards section shows two entries for the Freedom of the City for Kingston upon Hull in 1989 & 1999 - is this an error as I would have only expected you could receive the Freedom of the City once. Keith D (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Have corrected this - thanks for pointing it out. --Cazo3788 (talk) 13:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for prompt response. Looks like you have been doing a lot of hard work on this article recently. Keith D (talk) 14:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Desmond Tutu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. I'm planning to review Desmond Tutu. Eubulides (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The review is not complete (many sections are still empty) but I am posting it as I go. I'll let you know when I'm finished. Eubulides (talk) 18:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I finished the review, which you can read below. Eubulides (talk) 08:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Prose

Lead

• As per WP:LEAD the lead should summarize the body, but the following statements in the lead do not appear to summarize anything in the body. They should be removed, or should be reworded to summarize the body, or the body should be changed to expand on them:

• "Tutu was elected and ordained the first black South African Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town, South Africa, and primate of the Church of the Province of Southern Africa (now the Anglican Church of Southern Africa)."
• "He is generally credited with coining the term Rainbow Nation as a metaphor for post-apartheid South Africa after 1994 under African National Congress rule."
• "The expression has since entered mainstream consciousness to describe South Africa's ethnic diversity."
• 'Tutu is widely regarded as "South Africa's moral conscience"'
• 'and has been described by former President of South Africa, Nelson Mandela, as "sometimes strident, often tender, never afraid and seldom without humour, Desmond Tutu's voice will always be the voice of the voiceless".'
• "uses his high profile to campaign for the oppressed"
• "particularly in Zimbabwe, Sudan and Palestine" (particularly?)
• "has served as the honorary chairman for the Global AIDS Alliance"
• "the Albert Schweitzer Prize for Humanitarianism"
• "the Magubela prize for liberty in 1986"
• "the Gandhi Peace Prize in 2007" (the body doesn't give the date)

• The phrase " by Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, President of India" is out of place in the lead. It's not that notable (who cares who gave the award? we don't list the awarders even for the Nobel). I suggest removing it from the article.

• The prase "... high profile to campaign for the oppressed, though his consistent opposition to actions and policies pursued by Israel [...] and the United States [...] has made him controversial." seems biased by the writers standpoint on those particular issues.

Early years

• "says Tutu". Tense problem. Should be "said Tutu".
• "and later Tutu's mentor" This phrase isn't in its proper chronological location. Please move it to later in the section, at the proper time, to avoid foreshadowing.
• "Mogale City" is a red link.
• "Prime Minister Vorster" is lacking the "B.J.".
• Stray space after "National University of Lesotho".
• "Alternately charming and challenging them". Who's the "them"?
• "was appointed Anglican Dean of Johannesburg". Wasn't he actually appointed Dean of St. Mary's Cathedral in Johannesburg? You're a dean of a particular church, not of a city, right?

Personal life

• "a teacher who had met while at college" is ungrammatical.

Tutu's role during Apartheid

• "Apartheid" should not be capitalized in the section header.
• Wasn't Tutu the first black Secretary-General of the South African Council of Churches? If so, this should be mentioned.
• The text doesn't make it crystal clear exactly when he became an archbishop.
• "although it hit the poor hardest for if disinvestment" Comma needed after "hardest".
• "Rand" should be wikilinked; non-South-African readers won't know what a Rand is.
• "thirty thousand" → "30,000"
• "Tutu's opposition was vigorous and unequivocal" Opposition to what? It sounded at first like it was opposition to reconciliation, which of course is not intended.
• "Bishop Tutu" → "Tutu"
• "Desmond Tutu" → "Tutu"
• "former Archbishop, Philip Welsford Richmond Russell" Omit the comma.
• "a number of" → "many"

Tutu's role since Apartheid

• "Apartheid" should not be capitalized in the section header.
• "Desmond Tutu" → "Tutu"
• This section is too long and complicated and should be split up and reorganized. It is not at all clear that that some of the subheaders are appropriate for this section. For example, "Against poverty" surely applies to his views during apartheid as well as after.
• Perhaps you can have one top-section devoted to personal history after apartheid, and another top-level section talking about his views on various subjects (church reform, HIV/AIDS, etc).

Role in South Africa

• "Archbishop Tutu" → "Tutu" (twice)
• This section is too long and is not clearly organized. The paragraphs seem to be isolated from one another. What's the theme here?

Chairman of The Elders

• "Archbishop Tutu" → "Tutu"
• "Desmond Tutu" → "Tutu"
• Do not embolden "Desmond Tutu".

Role in the Third World

• This section seems too long and suffers from recentism. It could easily be replaced with a briefer summary of his actions and views on Darfur, Tibet, Zimbabwe, Israel, Palestine, West Papua.

United Nations role

• The text about his trip to the Gaza Strip really belongs next to the Israel/Palestine section. Some refactoring is needed here.

Zimbabwe

• '"Enough is enough?".' Omit the period.
• The citation to [1] is not formatted properly.
• after "force if necessary" the citation is poorly formatted.

Israel/Palestine

• Rename to "Israel and Palestine"

Political views

• I see little reason for this section header. The other sections (e.g., "Role in the Third World") are also political.

Against unilateralism

Little of this section is about unilateralism. This seems to be a section containing Tutu's criticisms of actions taken by the Bush administration. It should be labeled as such. Also, the section seems overlong and suffers from recentism.

Against HIV/AIDS and TB

• "Archbishop Tutu" → "Tutu"
• "everyday" → "every day"
• "HIV/Aids" → "HIV/AIDS" (twice)

Church reform

• "Desmond Tutu" → "Tutu"
• "Archbishop Desmond Tutu" → "Tutu"

Honours

• "freedom of the city" → "freedom of the city"
• "Pacem in Terris is Latin for 'Peace on Earth'." Remove.
• This section seems to combine major honors (the Nobel) with relatively minor ones (freedom of the city of Kingston upon Hull). Let's trim away the minor ones. He must have a boatload of honors.

Media/film appearances

This should be reworked into text that briefly describes the appearances. The list should be put on a separate list page.

Writings

Likewise. The lists should go elsewhere.

The first paragraph about the Greater Good Magazine (surely this should just be Greater Good) is weird and looks like an ad for Greater Good. Surely Tutu has published in many journals. I do like the idea of summarizing his major themes.

Further reading

No need to list Desmond Tutu: A Biography here, since it's listed as a source, in References. Generally speaking, all these sources should either be made citations, or removed, and this section should not be needed.

External links

There are way too many. See WP:LINKS. I suggest trimming down the external links to sites for Tutu's organizations: The Desmond Tutu Peace Foundation and The Elders.

Accuracy and verifiability

I verify that the catholics refer to apes as 'primates' just like the british drunkard junkies. I would recheck that one...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.116.68.67 (talk) 04:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• Desmond Tutu #Early years lacks sources for the 2nd, 3rd, and last sentence of 4th paragraph.
• Desmond Tutu #Tutu's role during Apartheid lacks sources for the 3rd and 5th paragraphs, and the last paragraph needs sources for each claim.
• Desmond Tutu #Tutu's role since Apartheid lacks sources for the 1st sentence and 3rd paragraph.
• Desmond Tutu #Church reform lacks sources for the 1st paragraph (including an uncited quote).
• Desmond Tutu #Academic role lacks sources for the first paragraph.
• Desmond Tutu #Chairman of The Elders sources only the quote; the whole section needs to be sourced.
• Desmond Tutu #Against poverty lacks sources for the "Following this summit" paragraph.
• Desmond Tutu #Honours lacks sources for almost all of the last paragraph.
• Desmond Tutu #Writings lacks sources for the first paragraph.
• Do not cite entire books. That's too hard to follow. Instead, cite particular page numbers within each book. This problem is found in citations to The Rainbow People of God: The Making of a Peaceful Revolution, and to Desmond Tutu: A Biography.

Coverage

• The lead should say Tutu is an Anglican Archbishop emeritus.
• I'm surprised to see no coverage of Tutu's book No Future without Forgiveness. Isn't that his best-known book?
• No mention that he graduated from the University of South Africa.
• No mention that he has a Master of Theology degree.
• No mention that he taught theology from 1967 to 1972.
• No mention of the Order for Meritorious Service - Gold.
• No mention of his campaign against South Africa's passport laws.
• No mention of his position on civil rights (as opposed to human rights). Wasn't his early campaign more about civil rights?
• There is too much coverage of Trevor Tutu. This should be condensed down to one or two sentences, like his other children. This is supposed to be a biography of Desmond, not of Trevor. Preferably his children should be discussed only insofar as they affect Desmond publicly.
• The text doesn't make it clear what the rule of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was, or what role Tutu played within the Commission. This is a big deal, and should be explained here somewhat.
• The text doesn't mention Tutu's stints at Episcopal Divinity School, Boston and the University of North Florida, Jacksonville.

Neutrality

Looks good.

Stability

OK.

Images

The fair-use rationale for Image:Desmond Tutu Quilt.jpg is unconvincing. Please don't use that image. Likewise for Image:Desmond_Tutu_Portrait.jpg. Sorry, but both fair-use rationales are rationales for discussing artworks, and don't apply here.

There aren't enough images. Please see [2] for some other images you can use, or scare up some others if you can find them.

Plagiarism

The following are direct or near-direct quotes from the source,[3] but are not in quote marks. This goes too far. Remove, reword to be a paraphrase, or put in quotes. Also, track down the edits that inserted this text, identify the editor who did it, and check all other changes made by the same editor.

• "Tutu faced a difficult balancing act: voicing black discontent while leading a largely white parish. Alternately charming and challenging them, he appealed to their Afrikaner heritage, recalling that their forebears had endured British concentration camps. Somewhat to the bewilderment of other black leaders, he patiently courted Vorster’s successor, P. W. Botha, explaining that even Moses continued to reason with Pharaoh. But white liberals grew nervous when Tutu called for a boycott of South African products."
• "That was the turning point: within months, Mandela was freed from prison, and apartheid was beginning to crumble."
• "Even if disinvestment threw blacks out of work, Tutu argued, at least they would be suffering "with a purpose." And disinvestment did succeed, causing the value of the Rand to plunge and pressuring the government toward reform."

Please check for other instances of plagiarism like this, and fix everything you find. A reviewer shouldn't have to check for plagiarism in each citation.

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of July 2, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Fail, some reorganization needed, see comments above

2. Factually accurate?: accuracy is mostly good; need to cite sources as discussed above. Some serious plagiarism problems, which must get fixed.

3. Broad in coverage?: pretty good, but some holes; see "Coverage"

4. Neutral point of view?: Pass

5. Article stability? Pass

6. Images?: Fail; see "Images" above

Whew! It's a big one to review! It's good, but not yet a Good Article. I expect more than a week will be needed to address the above issues.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— Eubulides (talk) 08:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the really detailed review. Will start addressing the concerns above soon. --Cazo3788 (talk) 08:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The Elders

No entry in WP for The Elders?? Johnalexwood (talk) 08:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing references

(404 and not in Wayback Machine)

• "Tutu to China: Stop Abusing Dalai Lama". ABC News. 2009-03-13. (rev 360217116)--AlastairIrvine (talk) 04:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Add 350.org link [4]?

Add 350.org link [5] http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/24/international.climate.change.demonstrations ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.88.228.53 (talk) 23:35, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Add "Mr. Tutu is a 350.org messenger."

Mr. Tutu is a 350.org messenger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.255.78.138 (talk) 19:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

And this is important to Mr. Tutu's article why? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Link?

Does the Michael Chambers link under The Elders paragraph go to correct person? It links to Michael "Boogalo Shrimp" Chambers. The latter article makes no mention of any involvement and from scanning "Boogalo Shrimp" article he seems unrelated. Tiddy (talk) 04:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Add Forward author of "Moral Ground: Ethical Action for a Planet in Peril" ISBN 978-1595340665

Add Forward author of "Moral Ground: Ethical Action for a Planet in Peril" ISBN 978-1595340665 with authors including Kathleen Dean Moore and Michael P. Nelson. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 22:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Theology?

Given that Tutu is a theologian, shouldn't his theological views be part of the article? --41.132.250.120 (talk) 17:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Is this true?

He has called the Jews “a peculiar people” and has accused “the Jews” of causing many of the world’s problems. He has railed against “the Jewish Lobby,” comparing its power to that of Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin. Tutu also said that "the Jews thought they had a monopoly of God: Jesus was angry that they could shut out other human beings." He has said that Jews have been "fighting against" and being "opposed to" his God. He has "compared the features of the ancient Holy Temple in Jerusalem to the features of the apartheid system in South Africa." He has complained that "the Jewish people with their traditions, religion and long history of persecution sometimes appear to have caused a refugee problem among others." Tutu has minimized the suffering of those murdered in the Holocaust by asserting that "the gas chambers" made for "a neater death" than did Apartheid. He has complained of "the Jewish Monopoly of the Holocaust," and has demanded that its victims must "forgive the Nazis for the Holocaust," while refusing to forgive the "Jewish people" for "persecute[ing] others."

source.

Did Tutu say these things? The source is an RS but an editorial. I'm concerned the statements may have been taken out of context, although "Jews thought they had a monopoly of God" seems difficult to distort. The Holocaust statements don't appear to be very humbling either.

How can this be moved into the article? Clearly Tutu has specific and defined views on Jews and Judaism and I think a unique section should be made. Thoughts? Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you have other references besides The Jerusalem Post? 99.181.128.190 (talk) 07:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Trevor Tutu

I suggest shortening the paragraph about Trevor Tutu. I'm not sure that so much detail about the bomb threat and criminal case is necessary. I suggest shortening it to 2 or 3 sentences. Totorotroll (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Dalai Lama ban

Should probably be added Tutu cusses ANC - Worst than apartheid--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

It is already mentioned but I think this part could be expanded, because he attacked the ANC goverment in a way rather proportional to the indignation he felt for not allowing the Dalai Lama to enter South Africa to attend his own 80th birthday.Mistico (talk) 19:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Life issues

I think most evidence shows that Desmond Tutu is generally speaking pro-life. He however finds abortion acceptable in extreme cases. This is what he said in 1994, according to the article: "In 1994, Tutu said that he approved of artificial contraception and that abortion was acceptable in a number of situations, such as incest and rape." Those with a better knowledge of his stance on the matter, could expand this part. I didn't found his exact stance on euthanasia. I believe that due to his Christian formation he would be against it, but I wasn't able to find his exact stance. He is strongly against the death penalty and is involved in the worldwide movement for his ban. This article from is own authorship shows it, "The doctrine of revenge", published in The Guardian, on 13 November 2007: [6]. I can quote directly: "For most of the 20th century the majority of the world's nations used the death penalty. But, as the millennium approached, many societies questioned whether killing their citizens through the judicial system served a positive purpose. I am delighted that the death penalty is being removed from the globe. To a Christian whose belief system is rooted in forgiveness, the death penalty is unacceptable."Mistico (talk) 20:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

He isn't pro-life, perhaps surprisingly or not. He supported the legalization of abortion in South Africa in 1996, without any restrictions:[7]. He claims to be pro-life, but only in the sense to be "personally against abortion".81.193.214.64 (talk) 01:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Same-sex unions

This is the most controversial part of his theology. While Desmond Tutu has been very supportive of the international LGBT-rights movement, I haven't found his exact words on the validity of same-sex relationships and if he supports the blessing of same-sex unions being done by his church. Some of this can be implicitly found in his words, but after an extensive search in the google, I wasn't able to find if he really believes in the religious recognition of same-sex unions. This is the question that most divides the Anglican Communion currently, so I find strange this fact.Mistico (talk) 20:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Will become an even greater question now that his daughter has herself married another woman.SecretName101 (talk) 19:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

poisoned tea

Desmond Tutu made a statement on domestic workers poisoning the tea of White employers. Does anyone have the exact quote? --41.150.206.10 (talk) 21:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Support for euthanasia

I think this should be mentioned in the entry. He just came out in support of legal euthanasia: [8]85.244.227.104 (talk) 16:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

He was called a "son of the Devil" for his support for abortion, same-sex marriage and euthanasia: [9].85.240.23.5 (talk) 00:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Desmond Tutu/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Too many redlinks, including links for his children? Badbilltucker 15:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 07:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 13:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Updated Needed About Daughter (in Personal Life section)

I currently am unable to do much work, however in a day or so will. I believe an update needs to made. His daughter is now no longer ordained. She lost her church license after she entered a lesbian marriage with her partner.SecretName101 (talk) 19:54, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

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Media appearances

Should include: BBC Arena 1995 "Stories My Country Told Me" 3 hours special on nationality. Tutu is one of the four main contributors — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.95.162 (talk) 00:03, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

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Error in wording of article

The phrase ‘In the UK, he met Runcie gave a sermon in Westminster Abbey,’ does not make sense. What is it supposed to say? Thanks. Freddie Orrell (talk) 21:30, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing that out. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:46, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2021

Desmond Mpilo Tutu OMSG CH (7 October 1931 – 26 December 2021) was a South African Anglican bishop and theologian, known for his work as an anti-apartheid and human rights activist. He was the Bishop of Johannesburg from 1985 to 1986 and then the Archbishop of Cape Town from 1986 to 1996, in both cases being the first black African to hold the position. Theologically, he sought to fuse ideas from black theology with African theology. ADD Archbishop Tutu died on 26 December 2021 at the age of 90. Netindian123 (talk) 11:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 12:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Is he really a Christian socialist?

Is he really a Christian socialist as the categories suggest? I don't see any content, let alone references, saying that he is a Christian socialist outside of the categories. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  01:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

You know what? Accusing someone of being a socialist without evidence is considered by many to be libel and slander. I've speedily removed those categories as contentious unsourced material about a living person.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  01:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, as a written work, it literally cannot be "slander". (Slander ≠ libel.) Secondly, not presenting evidence upfront does not in itself make something libellous. Lastly, a thirty-second Google search for the words "Desmond Tutu socialist" pulled up this article by Pete Earley in The Washington Post in the first page of results in which Tutu describes himself as a socialist. Accordingly, I will reinsert the category. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 05:00, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

And I've removed them again. 142.160.131.202, please read WP:BLP: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." It's not mentioned anywhere else in the article and, as such, is also unsourced. It may be seen as contentious by the subject as well. First add stuff like this to the article in an appropriate manner (so it may be challenged if it is faulty), then add a tag. By the way, your source is literally from the Cold War era. That won't suffice at all to describe him now. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 23:15, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I am aware of WP:BLP and nowhere (that I can see) does it say "sourced in the article", but nonetheless, I'm happy to add the information to the article's prose. I am, however, wondering what your concern is with the age of the source, Prinsgezinde. The Washington Post article was from the prime of Tutu's career and the most notable period during his life – it was several months before his translation to the See of Cape Town and less than two years after having won the Nobel Peace Prize.

To suggest that only categories that currently describe an article's subject (or, I suppose, that apply to an article's subject at the time of their death, if applicable) should be included is recentism of the highest order. By that logic, Category:English male film actors should be removed from Daniel Day-Lewis as he is no longer an actor (given his retirement). That would make even more sense than removing these categories from Desmond Tutu given that we actually have reliable sources saying that he no longer acts, whereas I know of no reliable sources saying that Tutu is no longer socialist. On what basis do you believe that Tutu has renounced his beliefs?

Finally, I can also provide some more sources. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 04:16, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

142.160.131.202, It says sourced, and if it's not sourced in the article, where else? The talk page archives? Not only is that not part of the Wikipedia mainspace, no editor passing through the article can then check the source unless he delves into it himself. It's actually also mentioned in the guideline (WP:BLPCAT): "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources."

What you should be noticing now is that the sources supporting this claim are mostly of debatable quality. That's what happens when you pick a prominent political activist figure and google their name + "[political view]". You can try the same for Obama and Trump. As for yours, both the first and last sources quote him from over 30 years ago. Don't you think that's kind of digging up stuff? He was asked the question because there was a Cold War going on and the side one was on mattered greatly. He also specified that he felt more like a socialist because of his disillusionment with capitalism, but that he wasn't a communist either. "Capitalism" is mentioned nowhere in the article now and he works prominently with businessmen so it can be assumed that he is not a hard-core anti-capitalist. If he were adamant of his believes he'd have said it more recently and we'd have better sources to support this. The second source makes a passing mention of him and likely refers to the same thing as your first and last source. It's also not very authoritive because it was written by a bible scholar in the field of philosophy. There wasn't even an analysis of Tutu, just the mention that he once advocated it (and I would dispute the term "advocate"). The third source is good because it reasons and draws its own conclusion, but it refers to African socialism. Tutu helped with that, for sure, but African socialism is much unlike other forms of socialism that were implied by the first and fourth articles. It was a form of distancing themselves even further from their former colonizers and in many cases it was also just a phase. Would Tutu call himself an African socialist now? Probably not, since he's a strong critic of Mugabe and his political party. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 09:32, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

142.160.131.202, It says sourced, and if it's not sourced in the article, where else? The talk page archives? Not only is that not part of the Wikipedia mainspace, no editor passing through the article can then check the source unless he delves into it himself. It's actually also mentioned in the guideline (WP:BLPCAT): "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources."

As I said before, this really isn't at issue here as "I'm happy to add the information to the article's prose", so I'm not sure what your point is.

What you should be noticing now is that the sources supporting this claim are mostly of debatable quality. That's what happens when you pick a prominent political activist figure and google their name + "[political view]". You can try the same for Obama and Trump.

I fail to see the relevance of your comparison given that:

1. Barack Obama has never claimed to be a communist and Donald Trump has never claimed to be a Nazi; and
2. plenty of reliable sources can confirm that Barack Obama is not a communist and Donald Trump is not a Nazi.

As for yours, both the first and last sources quote him from over 30 years ago. Don't you think that's kind of digging up stuff?

How do you define "digging up stuff" (assuming you understand the phrase to mean something not merely synonymous with research) and on what basis do you believe it to be a bad thing? (To clarify, I do not intend that as a rhetorical question.) This article is a biography of Desmond Tutu. Tutu was famous as both an ecclesiastical figure and a political figure, so why would it be wrong to report on his self-declared political views during the prime of his career? You seem to have neglected the main point of my previous comment. In the context of a biography, why would Tutu's life 30 years ago be any less relevant than his life today?

He was asked the question because there was a Cold War going on and the side one was on mattered greatly.

If it, in your words, "mattered greatly" at that point in history, why would we not be including it in a biography, being an historical record of the subject's life?

He also specified that he felt more like a socialist because of his disillusionment with capitalism, but that he wasn't a communist either.

I'm not sure what the relevance of that statement is as nowhere have I suggested that he ever identified as communist. Note that Christian communism is distinct from mere Christian socialism (as can be seen from the separate Wikipedia articles and separate categories).

"Capitalism" is mentioned nowhere in the article now and he works prominently with businessmen so it can be assumed that he is not a hard-core anti-capitalist.

Why would the fact that one has worked with businesspeople necessarily lead one to the assumption that one is not a socialist? Many socialists view that as necessary to an extent, so your 'assumption' cannot be accepted as a premise here.

For example, when he was Premier of Saskatchewan, the famous Christian socialist and Baptist minister Tommy Douglas wrote in the 1944 speech from the throne, "You cannot build an island of socialism in a sea of capitalism." This is hardly unique to Douglas either. Both before and after serving as Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Christian socialist Sir Walter Nash was himself a businessperson. Others who have been greatly influenced by the Christian socialist tradition have worked alongside business leaders as well, such as former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, who reduced the corporate tax rate and introduced investment incentives for small business.

While this isn't unique to Christian socialists amongst other socialists (see, e.g., certain Fabian views), it is perhaps a little more common, possibly as a result of their typically less Marxian ideology which tends to come from their rejection of scientific socialism in favour of ethical socialism.

You are correct that "'[c]apitalism' is mentioned nowhere in the article now", but like I said, that can easily be changed, and the reliable sources exist to do so.

If he were adamant of his believes he'd have said it more recently and we'd have better sources to support this.

Again, why are his current beliefs more pertinent than his beliefs 30 years ago? And the assumption that he would have repeated this view more recently were he "adamant of his believes [sic]" is more original research on your part.

The second source makes a passing mention of him and likely refers to the same thing as your first and last source. It's also not very authoritive because it was written by a bible scholar in the field of philosophy. There wasn't even an analysis of Tutu, just the mention that he once advocated it (and I would dispute the term "advocate").

What leads you to believe that Jason Jewell is a biblical scholar? Jewell is a Professor of Humanities, and the department chair, at Faulkner University. Based on his brief biography in the work I previously cited, as well as his profiles on the websites of Faulkner University and the Mises Institute, his research interests include political theory and the intersection of Christianity and politics. I can't find any work of his pertaining primarily to biblical studies. Am I missing something here?

And what is your concern with the word "advocate"?

The third source is good because it reasons and draws its own conclusion, but it refers to African socialism. Tutu helped with that, for sure, but African socialism is much unlike other forms of socialism that were implied by the first and fourth articles.

Are you implying that African socialism isn't 'real socialism'? Of course African socialism is distinct from socialisms derived largely from European thought, but it is still socialism.

It was a form of distancing themselves even further from their former colonizers and in many cases it was also just a phase.

Putting aside the paternalism of the "just a phase" remark, I fail to see the relevance of that argument.

Would Tutu call himself an African socialist now? Probably not, since he's a strong critic of Mugabe and his political party.

Plenty of socialists internationally have been critical of Robert Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe, so that's hardly pertinent here.

And once again, we return to what is likely the central issue here: why is it relevant whether Tutu calls himself a socialist now? This is a biography of his life, not a report on his current beliefs. As I said in my previous comment:

The Washington Post article was from the prime of Tutu's career and the most notable period during his life – it was several months before his translation to the See of Cape Town and less than two years after having won the Nobel Peace Prize.

To suggest that only categories that currently describe an article's subject (or, I suppose, that apply to an article's subject at the time of their death, if applicable) should be included is recentism of the highest order. By that logic, Category:English male film actors should be removed from Daniel Day-Lewis as he is no longer an actor (given his retirement). That would make even more sense than removing these categories from Desmond Tutu given that we actually have reliable sources saying that he no longer acts, whereas I know of no reliable sources saying that Tutu is no longer socialist.

Finally, I should note that, as best as I can tell, we seem to be in agreement with respect to the credibility of the articles in The Washington Post and The Sunday Times. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 21:02, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't want the comments in this discussion to keep getting longer so I won't address each point individually. I've already said you should first add contentious material to the article with proper sourcing per WP:BLPCAT, but as it stands that material would also likely be challenged. I've demonstrated that it's easy to find sources that discuss fringe views when politics or ideologies are involved. Your earlier 5 sources (last citation contained 2 sources) contained a libertarian viewpoint, a POV source called "Anti-Lifers: Violent to the Core" that appears to defend apartheid, and a fundamentalist clerical piece (containing quite a bit of homophobia) that claims Tutu's worldview was based on "godless communism". What I mean by digging up stuff (I refrained from saying "dirt" because that's not necessarily true) is that this is, again, too long ago and too equivocal to use as evidence for his current political stance. In any case, his statement during the 80's is enough to support a line or two in the "Role during apartheid" section that at that point in time he felt disillusioned with capitalism and favoured socialism, but not that he is a socialist. For that to be true without Tutu ever repeating his initial claim he should have at least been influential in said movement. Is he influential in the spread of this movement, and does he notably advocate its ideas? Has he recently been identified as a Christian socialist by someone knowledgeable on either subject? These questions need to be answered firmly before the label can be considered definitive. You're arguing that he was more important 30 years ago than he is now and that he should be described the way he was "in his prime" (despite him still being notable), but that's not how biographies work on Wikipedia. See also: WP:BLP/Tense. BLPs are written in present tense, meaning such a category does indeed imply the current state of affairs. Our description of him may change after death, again per WP:BLP/Tense, but then we should have plenty of resources in obituaries that give a nice overview of his life. Now to get off that morbid topic.. you're confusing the guidelines a bit. For one, original research applies to articles, not talk page discussions. The page explains this in the very first paragraph. This is because we're not writing articles to each other - we're discussing one. My focus on the distinction between African socialism and socialism is due to the leap in logic that because is a Christian who said he was a socialist he must also be a Christian socialist, but you have provided no source that uses the term "Christian socialist". In fact, at least two of them argue from a religious point of view and clearly dispute the "Christian" part. Regarding WP:RECENT: this policy only concerns overly detailing news stories and unduly focusing on recent events, not the argument that we need more evidence before placing an ideological label than one decades-old statement. One can easily argue that doing so would be a variant that is effectively the opposite to recentism but equally against policy (specifically WP:UNDUE). Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:54, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Only an American could have been libelled by calling him a socialist. He was not an American, so ... NRPanikker (talk) 18:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Rumours

There are Internet rumors of Tutu's death that appear to be premature. Bearian (talk) 14:02, 19 September 2016 (UTC) We know now that they were off the mark by five years. NRPanikker (talk) 18:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

He will be missed! 2607:FEA8:1FDE:BF00:1076:2027:479D:F17C (talk) 01:13, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Too long

Don’t y’all think this article may be a bit too long? It’s like 155,877 bytes long.CycoMa (talk) 17:12, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

You're right. It's about 15,000 words long, while Wikipedia:Article size recommends we keep it to about 10,000. Might be worth a trim. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:41, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I think a WP:SPLIT would be better than trimming, Tutu is definitely notable enough for multiple pages. Shuri42 (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

campaigned for gay rights and spoken out on a wide range of subjects, among them the Israeli–Palestinian conflict,

Clearly a very carefully crafted sentence. So which one was more dominant? The gay rights or his Pro-Palestinian stance. So why is his pro-Gay opinion clarified yet Yet his pro-Palestinian stance is left in limbo as to if it was just "outspoken". Why not say he was pro-Palestinian and liken Israel to the apartheid regime of South Africa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.1.79.52 (talk) 07:49, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Very good question with no appropriate answer given. Edited to reflect the article accurately, and a very important point that should not be left out. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)