Talk:Defrutum

WP:NOT#HOWTO[edit]

I removed the following text as it violates the HOWTO guideline. If sourced information can be salvaged and included in a non-how-to style, feel free to include (I removed this instead of re-writing it myself because it has no source to compare to). The Seeker 4 Talk 20:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uncited, potentially misleading section[edit]

The article currently states:

A 2009 History Channel documentary produced a batch of historically-accurate defrutum in lead-lined vessels and tested the liquid, finding a lead level of 29,000 ppb, a staggering 2,900 times higher than the current US drinking water standards of 10 ppb. These levels are easily high enough to cause either acute lead toxicity if consumed at once in large amounts or chronic lead poisoning when consumed in smaller quantities over a longer period of time (as defrutum was typically used).[2]

The footnote 2 does not seem to refer to this experiment at all; it is a reference to Nriagu's original article in 1983, written 26 years before this experiment was conducted. Thus it seems that the claim of acute poisoning risk is not supported by a cite.

And the claim if acute poisoning risk is potentially misleading; that is, it is rather unlikely that a lead level of 29,000 ppb (i.e. 29 ppm) would cause "[...] acute lead toxicity if consumed at once in large amounts..." and it certainly will not do so easily. The first, barely noticeable symptoms of acute lead poisoning appear at blood lead levels of around 40 μg/dL, but palpable illness (notably colic) does not generally appear until concentrations around double that. To obtain an 80 μg/dL blood lead level from a single large dose would require an intake of at least 4500 μg even if all was taken up and none was immobilised (both of which are significantly pessimistic assumptions.) At 29 ppm, 4500 μg would require consumption of 155 grams of defrutum.

While it is not altogether impossible that someone might swig 155 grams in an ancient Roman frat party, it is massively in excess of the quantities normally used. This was a piquant sauce typically used only in small amounts. For example, one authentic 5th century Roman recipe, pullum frontonianum, calls for the serving dish to be moistened with a splash of defrutum before placing the cooked fowl on it. This is probably no more than 5 - 10 grams, and it is a dish to serve 4 people. Thus even in Discovery's "worst case" experiment, the dose is actually about 60 - 120 times lower than levels likely to cause visible symptoms of acute poisoning.

Even the observation that 29,000 ppb is 2,900 times higher than the US standard, is seriously misleading. That is the standard for drinking water and is based on the assumption that you will be routinely consuming around 2 litres per day (either straight from the tap or as an ingredient in other foodstuffs or beverages.) Thus it is probably on the order of 400 - 1000 times the dose rate from defrutum. -- 202.63.39.58 (talk) 11:13, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Valid points all, but the History channel documentary was significant because it demonstrated that making defrutum in lead pots was, in fact, very successful at leaching out a lot of lead into a consumable beverage. 29 ppm is nothing to sneeze at if you're ingesting it on a regular basis. The real issue seems to be how often lead pots were used with acidic liquids intended for ingestion; I don't doubt that many poorer Romans may have used lead vessels, and if the articles are to be believed, Ludwig van Beethoven and Pope Clement II both may have died from lead acetate poisoning from years of daily drinking of wine out of heavily leaded (i.e- cheaper) pewter vessels. Additionally, consider the gluttony of some wealthy Romans, who would have a slave tickle their uvula with a feather to induce vomiting so they could go back and drink/eat more. This concept, bizarre and unthinkable to modern cultures, might well explain how some Romans developed chronic lead poisoning. Bravo Foxtrot (talk) 20:52, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Combine[edit]

I think this article should be combined with the articles for Petimezi, Pekmez, and Grape syrup. Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]