Talk:Death metal/Archive 1

First Paragraph

I'm no expert here, but surely the first paragraph isn't very encyclopaedic - the bit about simply having to grunt and smash an object and having no skill etc. This is contradictory to content later in the article which suggests that Death Metal requires a high level of skill. I'm surprised someone hasn't edited this bit already. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.80.193.160 (talk) 10:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

Actually, I'd say grunting constantly requires quite a bit of skill. Just because it sounds thrown together doesn't mean that it doesn't require advanced execution skills.

Falsely categorised bands

Considering various bands (Cradle of Filth, Lordi, Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, and black metal bands) are falsely identified as death metal by those unfamiliar to the genre etc., would it be safe to mention this in the article? - Dark Prime - 25th June 2006

I first remember the term "Death Metal" being ascribed to Hellhammer and similar bands on the 1984 Noise International comp called "Death Metal". See here: http://www.discogs.com/release/476432 - xtian5 13th Oct 2006

Opeth being mentioned as a Death Metal band can be done away with, as well, as they're only considered DM for their vocals.--Korey Kaczynski 00:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Blackened Death Metal

" Blackened Death Metal " ?! WTF?!

The fact that you have never heard of blackened death metal makes you an unqualified editor. Pasajero 06:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

 That's because its called Black Metal! 

Nope, blackened death metal is not the same as black metal... Wildnox

The very fact that I am enjoying Behemoth right now, and not hearing ANY black metal influences, speaks clearly to me that the term "Blackened" Death Metal is a fictive genre invented by mallcoreyes kids who listen to various popular melodic black metal artists and have no clue about what real, true Black Metal is about. Lyrics account for about 5% of the Black Metal and Death Metal genres - And these genres are absolutely not alike each other in any way, except that they may sound similar to the untrained listener (Otherwise known as a poseur) Daniel A. A. 08:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, I've now had a chance to listen to Zyklon as well, and already about three seconds into this song, I had absolutely no doubt that Zyklon is Death Metal. Emperors "IX Equilibrium" has absolutely nothing to do with Death Metal whatsoever. Who has been smoking something they shouldn't when they invented this pseudo-genre?

Yes, it's a sub-genre. It can simply be DM with BM vocals... for example.. Dissection?

Unqualified Editors

Its fairly obvious there are many mistakes in this page. The most obvious is Sepultura's exclusion from the key artists list, and their mention as a "thrash metal band". O.o WTF?!

>>>Yes. Let's list the mistakes. 1) Death metal is music. 2) People other than pimply-faced, testosterone soaked, teenage boys actually listen to it. 3) It is relevant.

Also Obituary get no mention...

What are you, stupid? Sepultura definitely is thrash not death metal.

I'm sorry but he's right, Sepultura began as trash and as one of the founding bands progressed into death metal. To have them out of the key artists list is innacurate.

please visit this site for some reference material: http://www.anus.com/metal/db/labels.html here is an exerpt from the site:

" Apocalypticism, which in speed metal bands had been a dire warning, was here a foundational assumption. As part rebel and part insurgent structuralist, metal broke the scale into broad tonal leaps and chromatic rhythm playing where the structure was the message, not the root note to which it was harmonized or the conventions of such construction followed; key is used carelessly if at all at focal points of intersecting themes in motif development, eschewing the cyclic silhouette of rock form.

This was most clearly defined in the second generation of the new style, which began with Sepultura, Massacra, Possessed, Necrovore and Morbid Angel, whose music was both a radical primitivism and a futurist adaptation of classical theory."

Dismember for example, is a great band yet does not have half of the influencial impact that sepultura had on the development of this genre.

the anus-site is pretentious and full of shit and certainly not a reliable source. And referring to Dismember, they (and its predecessor) w/ Grave and Entombed spawned that whole swedish thing in the late 80s and early 90s. Spearhead 21:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Some things that people need to realize, judging from this section... 1. Sepultura are thrash, and always have been. They didn't progress into death metal at all. If anything, they were closer to death metal when they first started out. 2. Death metal is music, and people besides pimply-faced testosterone-soaked teenage boys listen to it. With that said, Carcass should be mentioned in the melodic death section (Heartwork was one of the first melodic death albums), and the brutal death section needs to be fixed a bit; brutal death is not usually technical, and Nile certainly aren't brutal death. Scourge441 14:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have been wathing this discussion for a while now, everyone is right when they say Sepultura is thrash, HOWEVER, during the time when Death Metal was beggining to appear, Morbid Visions by Sepultura, which was recorded in 1986, managed to blurr the gap between Thrash and Death Metal, bringing it beyond where it was at the time. Sepultura is not Death Metal, but they are one of the key links in the chain. On another note, a major contributor to the origins of Death Metal was Pestilence.

Scientific Scale

I'm no scientific or Death Metal expert, though, as suggested by someone below, I believe we should make something to soundly identify what is, and is not death metal. Also, we could do something for subgenres, anyone care to articulate on this?

Herein lies the problem: the vast majority of the metal scene dislikes Wikipedia too much to get involved. With more qualified people editing things, the metal scene would be moreinvolved. But that goes against the principles of Wikiepdia. It's a vicious circle. I would love to contribute more than I do, but I'm SUPREMELY tired of unqualified people reversing my decisions. I.E., 'Oriental Metal' does not exist.

-Noktorn

How does the metal scene getting involved go against the principles of Wikipedia? The idea behind this site is to inform people, and since the metalheads are the ones with knowledge of subjects like this, they should be the ones who contribute. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scourge441 (talk • contribs) 14:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

If Possessed is Death Metal then why isn't Celtic Frost/Hellhammer and Bathory? They both sing like cookie monster and sing about Satan. I think maybe you should say some bands stradle the line between the two subgenres of Black Metal (satanic lyrics and growling vocals) and Death Metal (not necessarily satanic lyrics about death and growling vocals). Some of these subdivisions are getting ridiculous though. Me, I listen to Blackened Cajun Chicken Style Kung Fu Death Metal with a Side of Mashed Turnips. My how times change, I remember in the early 80's we used the terms Speed Metal and Thrash Metal almost interchangeably (see Music for Nations' Speed Kills comp with Metallica, Slayer, Exodus; with the tag line "The Very Best in Speed Metal!"). It seems to me that many of these other genres, i.e., Death, Black, etc. aren't different enough to exist as separate genres and should be subgenres of thrash/speed metal. You can attribute a band to this or that subgenre by what style the majority of the songs are played in...or create new ones if they defy classification. -xtian 10/13/06..

Death and black metal branched off from thrash, which is where the similarities are from. Since then, they've grown into completely different subgenres. Listen to Testament, and then listen to Necrophagist, and then see if you still think they can both be classified as thrash.

Also, to xtian, the lyrics have very little relavence to the genre that a band is... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.126.83.81 (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Necrovore and others

There's no mention of Necrovore, Deathstrike or Terminal Death on the "Early History" page. This should be rectified.

Deathstrike, and other bands featuring Paul Speckman, had no influence on the genre whatsoever. Speckman's repeated assertions that he is the father of death metal are products of his ego alone and recognized by no critics and very few fans.

The extent of Deathstrike and Master's influence is debatable, but they should be at least mentioned as one of the earliest bands in the genre.

Suggestions

We look at death metal as an artistic movement.

We start with its origins in hardcore and heavy metal, but point out where it differed, musically: narrative form.

We recognize that death metal is not a subgenre of heavy metal, but is substantially musically different, where heavy metal is a subgenre of rock.

Let's see what others think about those. www.anus.com 20:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Take a look at http://www.milius-web.de/sampler/death-metal.php as being a 1984 use of the term Death Metal, should this be used as an early use/coining of the term??

Of course most movements could be classified as artistic, but with extreme underground genres, you don't really have to deabate if it's an artistic movement or not. they're not in it for the money. But I definetely do not agree on the "death metal is not a subgenre" statement. Just because there are some aestethic differences between death and heavy metal does not mean that they are totally different entirely. Heavy Metal was and is, among other genres of music, a very important part of death metal. Why would it else be called metal? Many early death metal pioneers cite heavy metal artists as inspiration, so why is it a different subgenre then?

There is qualified information out there

If people stopped calling our web page "sub-par," the ANUS crew - who've been writing about death metal for over a decade - would be glad to fix this article.

For the record, I think ALL subgenres of death metal should be placed on this page. These are aesthetic variations without significant artistic or musical differentiation. And, drop NSBM. It's not a genre. It's a political tag, and the sooner people quit getting their panties in a knot over it, the sooner the kiddeez involved will realize the music is shit and bail out. 67.10.73.69 19:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"All IMHO" <-- the only NPOV possible

Your website is quite hedonistic. Death Metal to you is a 'lifestyle' or whatever you babble about, not everyone shares this view. If you were to 'fix' this article, it would be completely non-NPOV.

In Albert Mudrian's book "Choosing Death", he talks about how Possessed coined the term Death Metal with an ending track of an album. I didn't see that mentioned in the article so I thought I'd throw that out there.

Bolt Thrower in key artists

Someone explain to me how this band is crucial to death metal or influential at all.156.34.212.21 01:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Bolt Thrower's been around for a long time, and influenced many, but they and I both think they're grindcore. 67.10.73.69 19:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

BT were along with peers as Carcass and napalm death, the first bands to combine sheer brutality with with death / thrash metal and as such have influenced many other bands. BTW I don't see how any one can few them as grindcore anymore; their last 6 albums surely are pure death metal and have nothing to do with grind. Spearhead 12:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

They are one of the significant 'organitors of the acclaimed grindcore sound'. Yes, it is not blast beats, what make them grind, but chaotic solos, inspired by the thrash metal and crushing, atonal sludge/hardcore riffs is it wich make band grindcore.

Demilich

Demilich needs to be added to this page. Nespithe is one of the best death metal albums of all time, and this is objective fact. This page is too representative of the opinions of people who know nothing about real death metal and were listening to Hatebreed three months ago. I propose that only the opinions of enthusiasts of elite death metal albums such as Therion's Beyond Sanctorum and Demilich's Nespithe be reflected on this site. Worthless tripe like Behemoth, Cannibal Corpse and In Flames should never warrant a mention on a page that purports to be an encyclopedic article on death metal.

There is too little recognition for artists that stand out and produce something meaningful and too much of it for trends (some of which have marginal relations to death metal) and mediocre bands that best represent those trends.

Heheh, "objective fact." Nice oxymoron there. Anyway...

I can definitely respect Demilich's work. But as intelligent as the arrangements are, and as bad as their label screwed them over, that doesn't render their one album notable enough to be featured encrusted in diamonds in Wiki's death metal article. The fact you consider "worthless tripe" like Behemoth and In Flames to be trends, sadly, is proof of their worth when it comes to being mentioned as notable bands.

Here's a question; Do you think it's a happy coincidence that the death metal bands you consider to be "elite," are bands you just happen to be a fan of? Get over yourself, it's just music... 64.12.117.12 22:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Behemoth IS a trend band. First album, pagan black metal. After that, goofy melodic black metal. Finally, technical death metal. IN Flames was a dissection clone. LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THESE BANDS! www.anus.com 03:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe Demilich should be considered a main artist in the death metal genre, mainly because, along with Gorguts and Soulside Journey-Darkthrone, they influenced technical death metal, which is one of the bigger styles of death metal today. That really cannot be overlooked, Necrophagist and Gory Blister (to name but two), reek of riffs similar to those found on Nespithe. Just a thought guys...

Atheist

how the hell can someone say that atheist dont fit in here ... they are the best technical death metal band ever .... they were pioneers of technical death metal .. followed by death ... the album Unquestionable Presence totally rules and no matter wat any dumb person says, atheist are a death metal band and they rule.

Spearhead, you cretin, how is Atheist NOT a key death metal band? How is their inclusion in the list vandalism?

Did you notice the comment? BTW if you prefer to call names... go to your fave weblog Spearhead 21:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You still didn't answer my question about Atheist, Dickhead. I don't give much of a shit about Wiggerpedia parlance but the comment said "rv", which I took to mean "reverted vandalism".

I don't think Atheist belongs in this category at all. They are a great band but not a death mental band. Having "growled" vocals isn't enough for the label.

I agree that Atheist should not be classed as death metal, their sound is far closer to some sort of jazzified thrash than death metal. Listen to "Elements," (the only album I immediately have on hand) it's certainly more like Exodus and Testament than any archetypal death metal sounding band; varying from Deicide, Nile to late era Carcass, or even the gothenburg stuff. I would show Cryptopsy as jazz-influenced (technical) death metal and keep Atheist to the thrash side.

Listen to Unquestionable Presence and you will find yourself wrong. Compare that with Sodom and Forbidden and you will find that there is barely anything "thrashy" about their sound on that album. If Nile and gothenburg are "archetypal" "death metal" to you, you might as well remove Possessed from the list too.

I'm afraid the only one I have to go on is Elements, but I'll take your and metal-archives.com's word for it, maybe "(early)" should be addended. To explain my use of the word "archetypal"; Nile I would say are archetypal for modern death metal, since other bands have started following their lead (Behemoth, for instance), and have certainly been referred to as "the saviours of death metal." Carcass are pretty obvious, and I did say "even gothenburg stuff" to imply a distinction between it and death/brutal death.

Elements is crap they recorded in six weeks. Listen to the first two and the demos. First album is mostly speed metal, UP is definitely death metal. Compare to Gorguts and Morbid Anal. www.anus.com 03:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Atheist should be on the death metal page, mainly because of their first album. Piece of Time is like a revelation of how ultra technical metal should sound like without getting boring. It's got a lot of chromatic riffs, jazzy drum rhythms and unconventional arrangements, and the growls should just put Atheist on the Death metal page.

Dammit

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Doom metal nagging.

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Stop saying "Doom death metal." It's "Death/doom metal" as it is on the Doom Metal page and as it is on www.doom-metal.com and as it is on www.metal-archives.com. There's no such thing as "doom death metal" unless your band starts it. It's a doom metal genre anyways, not death metal.

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What is Lamb of God doing in here? Growling vocals and loud guitars does not a death metal band make -- Dysfunktion 01:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) OK, after seeing some of Spearhead's edits, I'm going to go ahead and reverse some of them. If anyone wants to talk to me about it, go ahead -- Dysfunktion 01:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yea, I've been trying to clean the list of bands there. Many of the bands listed were seemingly added by bands themselves for promotion or something as I have never heard of them at all or were not death metal. Also I removed Vader from the crucial band list as they have never added anything to death metal genre (except maybe triggered snare drums). Spearhead 19:25, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Go to the Vader page, you'll see why it's notable. And God, someone stop adding Lamb of God. They are NOT death metal. -- Dysfunktion 14:24, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

exactly notable not crucial. Spearhead 19:28, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I guess I see your point. But seriously, whoever keeps adding Lamb of God, STOP. 16:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

complain to wikipedia about it and see who is editing in history. and yes i do agree lamb of god is no death metal. panasonicyouth99

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EISREGEN IS NO DEATH METAL !

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It would be really nice to include some sort of definitive information on the vocalization, or "growling," as this seems to be such a key feature to the music.

It's exactly what it sounds like. Deep growling vocals instead of sung ones -- Dysfunktion 02:23, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I guess what I meant is definitive information on the different types of growling, as there seem to be several distinct styles involved... it's reminiscent of the various styles of Tuvan throat singing.

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What the hell is a "doom/death" hybrid? I know, I know. If you have to ask...

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This is a decent article, but the picture choices are terrible. Celtic Frost are if anything early black metal, and while Entombed did release one death metal album, "Clandestine" wasn't it.

I'm going to add and remove some names on the band list, nothing controversial, just a bit of common sense.

(A "doom/death hybrid" would presumably be music containing features of death metal and doom metal. Or is that too easy?) Prawn

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is Syllogism really a band? cannot find it on Amazon, cannot find it on the net, no country, is it an example of self-promotion?

also would take Coroner from the list - they are technical/jazzy thrash if anything, but sure not death - where are "low, growly vocals"?

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How can you NOT call Clandestine a Death Metal album? I've always thought it superior to Left Hand Path. I thought the Celtic Frost picture was a bit odd, since the band wasn't mentioned. However, the influence of Celtic Frost and Hellhammer before that on Death Metal is undeniable. They were the first band to use death grunt vocals, and a lot of bands, like Obituary, borrowed heavily from their sound. True, they were one of the big influences on Black Metal too, but don't forget Death Metal.

To me, Clandestine was always a bit more hardcore punk and thrash than death metal. It doesn't even have blastbeats, does it?

Since when are blast beats are requirement for death metal? Many DM bands don't use them or have never even used them. And yeah Clandestine definitely is death metal. Any Entombed albums after that are argueable Spearhead 19:27, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

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How is death metal difficult to categorize? Fast and heavy music heavivly influenced by thrash metal with growl vocals? --Arm

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Because that also describes genres that aren't Death Metal (to various extents), eg: Black Metal, Hardcore, Speedcore, Grindcore, etc. --Thedangerouskitchen 01:46, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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disturbing

if describing death metal as disturbing is POV (I have an extensive death metal collection, BTW) than what WOULD be a good way to point out that the vast majority of lyrics, if read and understood, would cause an average person to be disturbed? This clear tendancy toward the diabolical, deviant, abnormal, shocking and otherwise bothersome to grandma is an important fact to mention. I would like to hear an alternate suggestion. Are you a death metal afficionado yourself, snowspin? I'd reccomend having a glance at [1]. Sam [Spade] 03:54, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Be sure to mention taht the average person is a fucking moron and a product of what Nietzsche called "slave revolt" (has nothing to do with black people). www.anus.com 03:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a small death metal collection. I think that, in this case, the situation is similar in methodology, if not scale, to Adolf Hitler and the classic example from NPOV - describe the lyrics, trust the people to say, "Hey. That's disturbing." Snowspinner 03:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree that this is a meta-issue. There are two basic questions, in my eyes. #1. Does any reasonable person disagree? (you may not see this as being of any import, but I might). #2. Is this relevent/needed? I would say that on AH, the repetition was not needed, and that here there is practically no content describing what these fellows care to sing about. I'll do my best to remedy this. Sam [Spade] 04:07, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Much improved. Good edit. Snowspinner 04:12, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

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Is there anyone who can add some information with regards to some of the other subgenres of death metal? I was looking in particular for descriptive text of florida death metal vs NY DM - Is there a distinct difference? Gothenburg and general scandinavian DM is easy enough to find out (or hear, for that matter), and in fact is linked already. Though you might want to add in a link to the (non-existent) New Wave of Swedish Death Metal. wgm

Napalm Death

I think Napalm Death really deserves mention alongside the bands listed. The band Death didn't originate death metal just because they were called Death. The Napalm Death entry in the Wikipedia states that Napalm Death is "grindcore" which I agree is appropriate in today's terms for their very early work and some relapses (although Bill Steer called their grindcore period "death metal" at the time) but Harmony Corruption from 1990 I would definitely classify as death metal, after Jesse Pintado appears as a songwriter in the band. An early sign of their co-existence with the Florida school is the Terrorizer album, that was co-authored by Jesse Pintado and David Vincent from Morbid Angel. So let's take Morbid Angel as an example, that is listed as a typical original death metal band in the entry.

Their "Altars of Madness", just like the early stuff by the band called Death, is fairly unsophisticated and derivative from earlier bands like the Californian band Possessed's "Seven Churches" from 1985. Anyone can have their definition of death metal, but in my opinion a good point of separation between Possessed-like growling and modern, more well-executed, death metal happened in 1990 and 1991 and was a concerted effort between Britain and Florida. Blessed Are the Sick (1991) is Morbid Angel's most classic and influential album containing music of this kind, and it came after the work by Vincent and Pintado in 1989, and the Napalm Death stuff with Embury in 1990. If you think Death originated death metal, Possessed really should be mentioned alongside with them, but then you have to separate off Morbid Angel and Napalm Death's post-1989 stuff as "modern" or "more technical" death metal, along with Death's "Human" from 1991 (that, again, came after "Harmony Corruption").

I didn't attempt to edit the entry yet since I was wondering if people really disagree with me or if the entry was just very unfinished.

Napalm Death is grindcore. Death had nothing to do with the origins of death metal. Master, Sepultura, Sodom, Hellhammer, Bathory, Necrovore and Possessed beat them to it. Please seek actual sources in the death metal genre. The page I authored back in 1992 might help: http://www.anus.com/metal/

www.anus.com 03:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

128.111.16.181 20:34, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

People probably do disagree with you, and the entry is very unfinished. The wiki way tends to produce some crappy articles until someone like you comes along that can tie everything together... The current article was basically written by a badly-organized committee. Many of wiki's articles on death metal and other metal subgenres are very subpar. Go ahead and be bold! Tuf-Kat 02:48, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

I tried! Probably all kinds of fans (especially Cannibal Corpse ones) will kill it, but wrongly so ;) Marcus B 22:47, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

While I agree that Napalm Death's output after From Enslavement... was Death Metal, they weren't really innovative contributors to the genre by the time these albums were released. That's not to say that they should be removed from the article, but bands such as Repulsion (often lumped into grindcore when they were an equally important influence on death metal) aren't even mentioned. OnwardToGolgotha 03:22, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Napalm Death is grindcore. 67.10.73.69 00:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Grindcore evolved out of death metal. Napalm Death should be on this page. Spartacusprime 18:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

No, Grindcore evolved out of Hardcore Punk. Inhumer 05:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Got that right. Not sure if that's been said before, but to clear this up once and for all.. Napalm Death's first two releases were grindcore, heavily influenced by music like Fear of God, Lärm and so on. That's when they were still a punk (grindcore) band, in fact, some members of the band left Napalm Death before Harmony Corruption because they were turning metal. From Harmony Corruption and on they were a death metal band and a very important one at that and belong on the list of death metal bands.86.81.15.127 02:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually i believe Grindcore evolved out of deathmetal and yes napalm death should be on the page

You believe Grindcore evolved out of deathmetal. Read some articles/books/etc.. on grindcore. It is generally accepted by musicians and journalists to be a genre that evolved from hardcore punk. Later grindcore incorporated death metal traits. That's a fact Emmaneul ^(Talk) 07:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Black metal is not that closely related to death metal!

How can you say that black metal is closely related to death metal?? All black metal music are minimalistic and very limited in way compared to death metal.

There is somekind of relation betveen them but not close. Venom is a example. Its more black metal but has many kinds of parts from death metal.

Except that Venom is much older than modern death metal and musically isn't even related to black metal -- Dysfunktion 20:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know WHERE you guys are getting this from. Venom has nothing to do with death metal. Black metal was invented by (like many things in metal) Norweigan bands screwing up while emulating Venom (and stealing the term black metal in the process) and thus stumbling upon something new. Venom isn't really black metal, but get it as an honorary title. Sort of like Possessed with death metal.

A better statement would be that nlack metal and death metal had similar origins (ex. Venom)but went in radically different directions

The two hate eachother. No metalhead would get them confused. Morbid Angel got bombed by mall trolls in Europe. Also, BM needs some guitar lessons.

Both are EXTREME metal genres, so they ARE much or less related. The end of story. Nothingagainst 07:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

They evolved with a few bands in common, such as Celtic Frost, and Venom to a much lesser extent. Plus, the second wave of Black Metal evolved out of Death Metal and bands like Bathory, Celtic Frost, and Sarcofago (which was one of the first seconder wavers). Hell, listen to Sarcofago and it should make sense to you.--Korey Kaczynski 01:11, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Early scene

I was thinking of adding a genre box for this page, but I'm not exactly sure about the early (mid 1980s) death metal scene. I was thinking Florida (Death, Morbid Angel...) and South America (Sepultura, Sarcofago...). How does this sound?

Children of Bodom

I saw Children of Bodom on the list, would you really consider them Death Metal? I think they are more Power metal with growling vocals as they probably are.

• Some consider them death, others consider them power, many consider them melodic death, others call them simply metal to avoid picking a genre. Quite a few of their songs are death metal, especially those from Something Wild and a couple from Hate Crew Deathroll, so I believe they fit the list. --Sn0wflake 00:41, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

They growl. These groupings are far from scientific, maybe some day a technique for precise musical diagnosis will be developed, until then catagories are vague. Sam Spade 01:06, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

The question is are they a notable example of death metal? Methinks not Spearhead 22:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

• I got to know death metal through them, so yeah, they must have some influence. However, I have no intention of getting into this "who is death metal" debate. These lists are utterly pointless. The creators of the genre should be listed and that's it, since genre is completely subjective. Who can define with authority to what style precisely a band belongs? Very few bands on the list can't be questioned in some manner. The article should be improved intead of reverted to death. --Sn0wflake 01:08, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

When in doubt, check MA. Children Of Bodom is just power metal with unclean vocals.

There is a difference between screaming and growling.

Agreed. They're far closer to black than death, and even then, they're much closer to speed/power anyway. Though they're a notable band, they're simply not death. 69.243.28.125 23:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to start arguements, but Alexi Laiho of Children Of Bodom does not like their music to be considered "powermetal". He feels it should just be known as "metal". I am a fan of Children Of Bodom, and I do like powermetal. But, I feel that it has some black metal elements within it, and some powermetal elements, but then again it even has some classical elements to it. Weather or not you agree, I think it should still just be called "metal" Joey Brennan

You can't call it "just metal." That give absolutely no insight into what the band actually sounds like. Scourge441 15:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

If you think Children of Bodom has black metal elements, you obviously know Very little about black metal. Your idea of black metal being Cradle of Filth, perhaps?

Children of Bodom are POWER METAL WITH UNCLEAN VOCALS. Definetely not death metal, I would not even label them Melodic Death. If they had clean vocals, noone would even think of calling them Melodic Death. Isilioth

A power metal-type sound is a characteristic of Finnish melodic death (with the exceptions of Insomnium and Mors Principium Est). Would you consider calling Norther or Kalmah or Skyfire power metal? Besides, if In Flames had all clean vocals, they wouldn't be called melodic death either. Scourge441 15:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what Alexi thinks or likes, band members have been wrong before about the sort of music they play. And it seems people have already reached the view point that they are not a Death Metal band anyway. Dace59 11:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

COB are not anyhthing death metal because Laiho scream! As i always said death metal vocalists does low growls not high-pitched screams. Also these bands such as Etos, Norther and early Kalmah are not death in any chance! They are something else black metal or thrash metal but definitely not death metal. BTW i don'nt know what is the best description of the stuff of these bands ,but the are not death.

please remove the "key artists" list

Don't make it "most popular artists"; reserve it for artistic notables. Children of Bodom had nothing to do with the creation of the genre. "No two people" may agree on the list but it's useful to give listeners a start. I would limit it to ten bands, and do it historically by development of genre. Sodom, Celtic Frost, Bathory, Massacra, Sepultura, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Immolation and Suffocation. 67.10.73.69 19:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Great effort here, for the most part. I'd really like to see this article contain only the overview, the history, and definitions/examples of the subgenres; and scrap the "key artists" list. No two people are going to agree on which bands deserve inclusion on the list, and IMHO it really weakens the article to present something so obviously subjective under the pretense of being definitive. - Murphy S., metal listener for 20+ years

• This should apply to all articles about musical genres. But we have to start from somewhere, I guess. I concur. --Sn0wflake 02:25, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• Note there are two lists: key artists and List of notable death metal bands. The former is actually quite stable. The latter is not - some ppl keep adding irrelevant bands to that list (maybe a good idea to require registration for editting anyway) and other remove them again (notably Lamb of god) - but basic list is also quite stable. Anyway, most of the article could use some work, mostly the post 1990 section. Spearhead 15:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• I think this is an extremely bad idea, and intend to revert any attempts at it. Sam Spade 16:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Very reasonable and argumentative of you. Instead of exposing your point of view, you state that you are going to start an edit war in case things don't go your way. How about argumenting like Spearhead?

To make this clear: I AM IN FAVOR of the Key artistist section. What I am AGAINST is the List of notable DMB' --Sn0wflake 18:56, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Compromise

List of notable death metal bands, which can be included in the see also section. I don't want these lists deleted because they are extremely useful to me as a reader. Before editing on the wikipedia I was a reader for a couple of years, and I (and other readers I know) use these lists for a source of bands to look into. If its becoming to much of the article it needs to be moved to list page. Sam Spade 19:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. I concur --Sn0wflake 19:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I object. It doesn't solve the problem. I think the keyword here is 'notable' which is rather personal. Second, it is superfluous as List of heavy metal musicians covers it.

OK, I've done my best to address the above concerns, what say you now? Sam Spade 20:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

seems fair.... tho it seems that List of heavy metal musicians is a bit obsolete anyway... So my proposal would be for that list to be make it into a list of heavy metal subgenres or so pointing to lists of each genre. What do you say? Spearhead 21:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree strongly. Be bold! Both sound like good ideas. I'll look into it. Sam Spade 22:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Massacra, while fantastic, is mostly unknown and had very little influence on death metal as a whole.

stop filling the list of key artists

Keep this list clean. The list is fairly complete as it was, altho there are some bands overlooked. The list of Death Metal bands is for listing death metal bands as it says. Spearhead 19:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for people to be adding random flash-in-the-pan artists. The list should stick with the most important and influential bands in the genre.

-Noktorn

Some artist that are in the list are no real key artist for this genre. Opeth?Emmaneul 02:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Lamb of God

• Lamb of God (USA)

Why isn't Lamb of God Death metal? Sam Spade 19:12, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

see article --> Lamb Of God is a five-piece progressive thrash metal band from Richmond, Virginia, US. Not that I have ever listened to them tho...

anyway, not wanting to discuss what style it is precisely, LoG don't appear to be very notable in the first place... that goes for some other bands on the list as well. anyway the lists seems to have gone now anyway... Spearhead 20:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Lamb Of God doesn't sound like thrash metal. I would say metalcore, but it doesn't sound mearly melodic enough. But it is DEFINITELY not death metal. Spartacusprime 22:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the subtleties of music genre and article notability are a never ending debate. Any idea what genre hank III is, btw? Does his self chosen "hellbilly" count? ;) Sam Spade 22:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I've heard Lamb of God, and they are not death metal. Metalcore and death metal are both fast and have growling vocals, but they're not the same (hell, Killswitch Engage's singer had deeper vocals but they're not death metal). I don't claim to know much about metalcore, but I do know death metal. Lamb of God has a different rhythm than death metal (Lamb of God is kind of "spastic" or "chunky" sometimes, and most death metal has a steady flowing rhythm like Deicide and Malevolent Creation, although it's not always as strong), and breakdowns, which from what I've heard are a staple of metalcore and hardcore. Lamb of God would make a good death metal band, but strictly speaking, they're not metal.

People who don't understand metal shouldn't be working on this project. Lamb Of God is metalcore, or post-thrash when I'm feeling charitable.

Perfectly said. They can perhaps be qualified as groove/post-thrash, but are for the most part nothing more than metalcore.

Sub Genres and the possible addtion of technical musical details

I think the entry was well written. However i found that in the sub-genre section there was no mention of florida or new york death metal so i have added them. i believe at a minimum and entry on death metal does have to include something about florida especially if it mentions sweden. i also mention carcass's role in gore grind and added exhumed and impaled as they typify gore grind i believe. also i am not sure of slam death metal. i have never heard the term but it may be similar to new york death metal and they could be merged if this is tru. also i have added death thrash. i am not sure if what i wrote is entirely correct so i would like feedback.

also i was looking at the anus.com and it has a lot of detailed facts about the music and vocals. it has been written with a lot of technical details about music theory and more. it classifies the different song structures of the genres, different vocal styles, etc. someone here as asked about including the info on the various vocal styles. is this appropriate here? i would like an opinion.

i agree with most of this entry. i found the clarification of the early roots useful. also i believe something should be said about this: although death metal in definition must have grunted vocals and blast beats this is not always tru as some Entombed albums like clandestine do not have blast beats but they are death metal no less. (of course the newer death 'n' roll cds by them are NOT death metal.) there may even be examples of death metal without grunted vocals i do not know of. so this criteria should not be rigid but a generalized basis. more should be elaborated on the attitude and philosophy and maybe a classification of the lyrical styles would shed more light for example the 4 main types of lyrics: satanic/religious (some pro-christian bands r DM), gory/medical (carcass), philosophical (death) and socio/political (napalm death.) i didnt want to change too much as i am nu here. but i felt that mention of florida was important. also i feel scot burns should be mentioned as the premier producer and those 2 famous studios (one in sweden, one in florida.) also the links to the various labels would be good and i could do it if you guys agree. and there is no mention of noise core as some bands do incoporate influences from death metal. i do know it is not death metal and even more distant than grind core.

also i believe lamb of god is NOT DM. it is thrash. i feel the latest testament album sounds more like death metal than LoG. it does have the growls sometimes but otherwise it is thrash. slayer stylistically is closer to death metal. even old sepultura can be said to be death metal. but not LoG. but i dont think LoG is metalcore like killswitch engage.

ADDITION:

is cannibal corpse considered new york death metal? they r not from new york, nor are they similar to the new york sound. only thing is they have that chugging rythm but other than that i would say they r florida DM.

RE: TECHNICAL DEATH METAL: The list of technical death metal bands should include Martyr from Canada who are as technical as Theory in Practice and are also directly influenced by Cynic, Athiest and later Death. Martyr's insanely technical musical output should be noted (their guitarist even played on a Gorguts album and they are much less technical, yet mentioned with the others).

ok by me (not willing to discuss which band is more technical) Spearhead 5 July 2005 11:52 (UTC)

Definitely merge the Florida and Brutal Death metal entries with this one. One is a region and the other is a qualitative descriptor. Even though so many bands from Florida sound the same, they should not be considered apart from death metal as a whole. Better still, there should be sections in here about Swedish death metal (Entombed, Unleashed, Dismember, Grave, et al) because they have a distinctive sound. A Quebec death metal section would be nice too though so many bands from there have gone from copying the Florida sound to a more European sound and then back again over the years that it's hard to pin down any trends except for a lack of originality. (Cryptopsy is the only exception to the foregoing.)

NOTES: Carcass and Napalm Death are considered grindcore, and the addition of "death metal" on their pages can be considered somewhat inaccurate but understandable, owing to the frequent stylistic similarities between grindcore and death metal.

Death 'n' roll does not sound like a legitimate genre to me, and its page is almost utterly worthless as it lists no so-called death 'n' roll bands. Entombed, according to the page, later became hardcore punk. Dismember is Swedish death metal, not death 'n' roll by any stretch of the imagination. Six Feet Under is death metal. Period. The death 'n' roll page itself contributes nothing, and thus should be deleted. --GreatCthulhu 13:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Merger with melodeath?

Am I the only one who thinks it's a mediocre idea to merge Melodic death metal into this article? --Sn0wflake 15:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Why? I'm pretty neutral myself in this case. But in general there are too many nonsense metal subsubgenre articles on WP - so it's a good idea that people propose to clean that up. Spearhead 16:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a quite firm distiction between the 1990s Gothenburg (melodeath) scene and the rest of death metal. In essence, the styles are very different, especially if you use early In Flames for comparision. --Sn0wflake 17:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

many of bands on the list that I know, I would consider rather straight death metal bands: Arch Enemy, * At The Gates, * Callenish Circle, * Carcass, * Dark Tranquillity, * Edge of Sanity, * Entombed, * Hypocrisy, * In Flames, * Unanimated. Many of these bands are only a small step away from like Carnage, Dismember, Grave, Merciless. And sentenced isn't even mentioned, as North From Here is probably the first gothenburg style dm. The same train of thought actually goes for Brutal death metal as well. And many more metal pseudo genres: Celtic Metal, Pagan Metal, Punk Metal, Tech Metal, NSBM, ... Then again I'd give melodeath the benefit of the doubt. Spearhead 18:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not claiming the article is any good, but it does seem to deserve its own entry. I have to disagree with some of the examples you cite, especially Arch Enemy and At the Gates, but we don't have to agree with everything. As for brutal, I do have my doubts, but a few bands of that subgenre do set themselves apart from classic death metal. --Sn0wflake 20:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur, although I think the article title should be changed from "Scandinavian Death Metal" to either "Gothenburg" or "Melodic Death Metal". "Scandinavian Death Metal" makes it sound like it should be merged; it's a misrepresentation of the distinction.

Then again, I'm also one of those people who'd like to sort articles effectively and efficiently. We could just put it as a subsection in death metal, as a distinction (although given the trend in Wikipedia to as many different article pages as possible...)--24.126.30.46 06:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

"Melodeath" isn't really death metal, save for maybe At the Gates, Sentenced, Necrophobia (among a few others). But Arch Enemy and such aren't death metal.--Korey Kaczynski 07:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Arch enemy

Why aren't arch enmy on this list of death metal bands? Cos they are. and mastodon, I though they sounded like death metal. And venom aren't black metal? they started the whole black metal genre you tool.

venom was classified death at the time. as for arch enemy, it is more melodic death metal and they haven't had a greater affect on death metal as the others. lastly mastodon, they are not death metal, they are more like sludge metal though it is hard to put them in a category since they have grind, death, jazz and hardcore in them with melodic instrumentals. panasonicyouth99

As panasonic said, Arch Enemy is melodeath. Mastodon is ranked somewhere around sludge metal or noisecore, but they're -definitely- not death. Oh, and about Venom. Without Venom, black metal wouldn't have sprung up... Then again, without Slayer or Metallica, death metal probably wouldn't exist either. That doesn't mean either band is death.

Logic is fun, tool.

Venom were Death Metal (to some extent - I mean, they are much more like Death or Possessed than Immortal - that's how I see it) - although their album/song "Black Metal" sparked off a whole new "subgenre" of Death Metal which ended up becoming the perverse monstrosity known today as "Black Metal". I would NEVER think of calling Arch Enemy proper Death Metal - even though the heavy riffs and Cookie Monster Vocals are there, they are hardly as brain-splittingly blast-beatingly good as bands like Decapitated, Cannibal Corpse, etc. thedragon5000

Oh no no no, my friend, you did NOT just call Mastodon noisecore. Listen to 2 Minuta Dreka and talk to me then. They're simply a vaguely technical sludge band.

Venom is neither Death Metal nor Black Metal. They're a Thrash Metal band, although they would also have some influence on Death Metal musically. For Black Metal though, they aren't extremely notable. The only Black Metal band that was heavily influenced by them was Mayhem, and they didn't even start truly playing Black Metal until the '90s. I'd say that bands like Bathory and Sodom on the In The Sign Of Evil EP (the latter of who were influenced by Venom, so I guess you could argue their influence in that regard) would be much more influential to Black Metal than Venom. X-pert74 08:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Overhaul

I did a major overhaul of this article, as there is a lot of redundancy, poor wording, inaccuracies, not to mention an intense amount of biased POV towards the band Death. I also scrapped the entire 'sub-genre' list as the genre classifications serve no purpose other than name dropping and making death metal more complicated than it actually seems, not to mention many of them are inane. An entirely new paragraph is needed for post 90s death metal. We don't need sub-sub genres of metal, people. We want quality, not quantity. kultron

external links

What should not be linked to

1. Links that are added to promote a site, by the site operator or its affiliates. See

External link spamming.

(Opes 03:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC))

"Cookie monster" edit war

Hi. Please do not edit war. Further, both parties, User:Deathrocker and User:156.34.234.101 should refrain from calling each others' edits "vandalism" or "trolling". This is clearly a content dispute. It should also be an easy one to solve. User:Deathrocker, the unreferenced assertion " due to the nature of the vocals detractors of the movement often label this style “Cookie monster metal”. " should be removed until it is properly referenced, as it is a disputed fact. When you find a reference for it, it should be in the article as "Prominent music critic John Doe describes the style as "Cookie monster metal"[reference]". "Detractors of the movement" is a broad generalization that we should avoid (see WP:AWT for more about this). Going forward, please keep in mind WP:CIVIL and use article discussion pages when there is a dispute. Thanks. Jkelly 17:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Do a search on Google for Cookie monster Death metal, it is undeniable that a significant amount of people refer to it as so, regarding the vocals, that is why it is stated purely as a term used by detractors and not fans of the movement. To not include it would be bias. - Deathrocker 02:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Deathrocker, I appreciate that you are right, insofar as not having any criticism of the genre would violate our Neutral Point Of View policy. However, saying "Google for it" when someone asks for a reference from a reliable source isn't ideal. When we contribute to Wikipedia, we are expected to cite all of sources, and the burden is not upon other editors to track down the references. The correct thing to do, oultined at Wikipedia:Citing sources is to cut the disputed material to the Talk page until it is verified, which is what I am going to do. Jkelly 02:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Due to the nature of the vocals detractors of the movement often label this style “Cookie monster metal”.

And this link is to a Google search on "Death metal" and "Cookie monster". I would like one of our experts here to review some of those links and identify those that are the most reliable sources in the field. Thanks. Jkelly 02:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

How is it "not reliable"?? There is clear evidence that detractors of the movement, refer to it as "cookie monster" metal, it is senseless to leave it out espeiclaly when you have evidence of it right infront of you and considering the other party in this argument, can't be bothered to show up here to atleast debate otherwise.

A few examples:

http://rocknerd.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/15/1626209 http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=50398 http://heavymetal.about.com/od/glossary/g/gl_cookiemonste.htm http://www.metalstorm.ee/articles/article.php?id=18 - Deathrocker 02:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the sentence to avoid generalizing and added a footnote for proper referencing. I trust that User:156.34.234.101 will be satisfied that this characterization is now well-sourced and belongs in the article. Jkelly 03:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Death Metal in the LGBT

Could someone please provide a source for this statement: "It is of no suprise that death metal is a mainstay in the gay and lesbian community. With the rise of AIDS and other deadly sexually transmitted diseases, alot of these people are turing to death metal as an outlet." - I have never once heard of this, until seeing it here in this article. This statment sounds VERY POV to me, the classic AIDS=gay sterotype. Avador 20:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

That's simply trolling. The gays I know are all listening to emo.

That statement about gays and death metal was probably made by some homophobic dumbass who knows shit about death metal.

The LGBT/death metal comparision reeks of vandalism. I hate vandalism... --SonicTailsKnuckles 14:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Overhaul of history section

I wrote much of the original history text here quite a while ago, and partially it has been improved upon since then, but mostly it got worse, so let me comment upon the new changes/repristinations I made.

1.Influences Deleted calling Venom an "early" heavy metal band, as far as that genre is concerned they were pretty late, and it already said "metal" in the previous part of the sentence. Deleted "It has been said that Slayer's early music, most notably Reign In Blood and Hell Awaits are hugely influential." Any particular band that said this? Why these particular albums, and why list them in anti-chronological order? I rewrote it, but I do agree that it fair to mention one early thrash metal band in the history part, and Slayer seems like one of the most aggressive representatives.

2. Venom/growling "... as genres are not usually identified solely by aesthetic form." I was making a point that growling cannot be the only identifying factor of death metal. What does esthetic form have to do with this? Since I couldn't exclude that there was some thought behind this, I didn't delete it in case someone wants to defend it.

3. Special preferences/bias

a) I don't think the band Master ranks in influence with bands such as Possessed or Death, but I left it there for now to see if someone wants to argue.

b) I don't think Suffocation was nearly as big a deal in the merging/creation that went on in 1991 as any of the other bands I listed, in particular Suffocation *debuted* in 1991 and the other bands were older bands that were moving into new territory. Unfortunately I don't have that album here so I can't remind myself of how it relates to the other ones right now. But noone can try to motivate that they would be the "most plagiarized band" in the field. Also that person had put "Effigy" as their debut album, which seems incorrect to me.

4. Early vs. modern As I had anticipated, some from the "early death metal" group of fans/historians started putting Chuck Schuldiner right in the middle of the discussion, making a reference to the Human album, even though the "early" part of the discussion was clearly marked as pertaining to 1983-1987. "Human" should appear exactly where it appeared chronologically, *after* the discussion around Harmony Corruption in 1990. If you want to change the statements about Death in the early period 1983-1987, feel free, but you cannot use the as yet untranspired events around Human in doing so. I have tried to make the discussion fair to what I have the impression are the two main views of when death metal was created: very roughly speaking, the "1985" view and the "1990" view. I think the only way to get peope to agree on this is to clearly state who recorded what and when, and only put in one or two comments to the effect of "this is when someting new was created" without claiming authority on when death metal was *really* created.

Effigy of the Forgotten is Suffocation's debut album. They released an EP prior to this.

1. Slayer, while not death metal, had a major influence upon the genre. I still don't know why Venom is being mentioned in relation to death metal.

2. There's more to aesthetic form than simply the vocal styles used. I'm not a big fan of the phrasing of that anyway; it and other ANUS inspired comments are a bit too sketchy for my taste.

3.a. I haven't heard Master myself, but a lot of historians claim them to be a critical factor in the history of death metal. I'm always a little edgy, though, when demo-only bands are held up so highly...

b. Suffocation is critical to the idea of death metal because they represent the rise of brutal death metal. Human Waste was the debut EP, but all but one of the songs were re-recorded on Effigy Of The Forgotten anyway.

4. This is my view. Death metal begins with Possessed's Seven Churches album. This represents the beginning form of death metal, as a kind of extreme thrash. I personally believe that the shift towards the modern death metal sound comes from the release of Obituary's Slowly We Rot. You'll notice there the shift from rasped vocals, thrash drums and guitars, and satanic or occult atmosphere to guttural vocals, double-bass priority and brutal riffs, and horiffic atmosphere. I think it's an important distinction to make.

I agree with the Slowly We Rot view. It seems to be the first album to include all of the characteristics of modern death metal. I think it should get more mention in this article Thedividingline 06:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Musikbands

I have seen that some bands (AfD results for Brutality (band) or Demilich (band)) were deleted, because anybody who don´t know anything about death metal believes these band or another is not important. I don´t know the criterias for bands in the english WP, because I´m a user from the german WP and there is enough to do! So everybody who cares have a look to the list of death metal bands and discuss when anybody will delete a band.--DanielMrakic 15:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

This is incredible. It really goes to show what a shithole of ignorance wikipedia is. Their criteria for "notability" is measured in how many results google returns. Absolutely idiotic and appalling.

Demilich (band) is Back!--DanielMrakic 11:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Brutality (band) is also back!!!--DanielMrakic 10:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Retarded deletion

Who the fuck keeps deleting metal articles? I can understand cleaning up bullshit genres such as "battle metal" and "troll metal", but why do people with no understanding of metal have to start meddling in useful and informative articles? Aside from the deletion of the pages of two important bands, I noticed that a lot of the links on the page, such as the one to "Slam death metal", simply redirect back to the death metal page, presumably because the original article was deleted.

Nobody knows!!! In German WP it is an own article!de:Slam Death Metal--DanielMrakic 12:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Slam death metal sounds like a euphemism for sodomy. Kiss me, sailor? www.anus.com 03:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

slam death metal is not notable enough and not different enough to warrant a separate article. Hence it is includede here. WP had/has a huge number of metal genre articles many of which are genres limited or created by just a few bands. Spearhead 14:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

As a precautionary measure I advise that all metal articles from now on carry some kind of tag near the bottom telling inexperienced users or moderators with marginal knowledge of the subject at hand to fuck off and do something productive rather than get some perverse fix out of deleting the most articles per day.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.219.173 (talk • contribs)

Please see WP:MUSIC for inclusion criteria and also Wikipedia:Civility if you would like to contribute to the discussion. Jkelly 05:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

This are the important criterias for an edit of DM-Bands:

For performers outside of mass media traditions:

• Is cited in notable and verifiable sources as being influential in style, technique, repertory or teaching in a particular music genre.
• Has been a significant musical influence on a musician or composer that qualifies for the above list.
• Has established a tradition or school in a particular genre.
• Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre.
• Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture.

--DanielMrakic 10:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The Chasm

I add The Chasm into the list of notable DM bands. In hindsight this is probably not a good move considering no matter of how much quality their work is they are still relatively unknown. Feel free to delete I guess.

--Lone Isle 13:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Images

There used to be some images of album covers on this article. Why were they removed? I think images should be added to the page, both of album covers, bands and live performances.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.222.96 (talk • contribs)

Probably because of Wikipedia:Image use policy and Wikipedia:Fair use. If you have photographs that you have taken of bands at performances, please do release them under a free license so that they can be used to illustrate articles. Jkelly 22:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of band/genre sections that contain album covers. Are they all breaking the image policy?Emmaneul 19:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Regional Scenes

The main regional scenes of death metal are not the UK and USA but Sweden and Florida.

Early history (up to 1991)

The 3rd and 4th paragraphs of this section mentions "other death metal historians" and "The alternative standpoint", without naming any source. In fact, the entire article was written without any references whatsoever (except the rather arbitrary reference to "Cookie monster Vocals"). Mzyxptlk 15:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

musicology

This article should have a musicology section. Themindset 21:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Bolt Thrower is death/grind

Bolt Thrower is not grindcore! Bolt Thrower's own genre is death/grind because they Create the death/grind

Venom and their labeling of their music

"Venom never labelled what they did"

Who ever thought this? Just looking at my booklet of Black Metal for example, I see a quote from 'Hellsapoppin!', which reads "Our music is Power Metal, Venom Metal, Black Metal, not Heavy Metal cos [sic] that's for the chicks". That's just one example. This is kind of a minor point for the article, but that line should be changed somehow, since they obviously did label their music. X-pert74 06:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I found that comment a bit odd. Pasajero 17:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Slam Death Metal

I remember not too long ago this was a listed subgenre of death metal and I'm curious as to why it is missing. I'm new to actually getting involved with the discussions here on good ol' wikipedia so it's very likely I missed something. I pretty much think that bands such as Devourment and Dying Fetus should be under here. I very well could be wrong.

It probably went for not being noteable/lack of proof/etc. The bands you mentioned fit fine in existing genres that wiki uses/recognises, so unless there's a lot of evidance and use for changing or adding a genre, it won't happen. Dace59 06:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly a stylistic difference, though perhaps not quite a subgenre. I'd say it at least deserves a mention.Noktorn 03:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Slam Death is just Brutal Death with a different name--Inhumer 16:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Slam Death is just nu metal with a different name.

Bestial Devastation (Sepultura)

Surely this qualifies as early death metal (1985). It's sure more death than anything Possessed ever released.

Pasajero 17:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'd have to go and spin Bestial Devastation again. It probably qualifies, but all it really helped lead to is waves of crappy Brazlian Death/Black bands, rather than a big impact on things like the US scene. EDIT: After giving it a spin again, I wouldn't call it more death that Possessed work, but yeah it has that sort of sound and style, so it fits. Trouble is, the article then goes on to compare Scream Bloody Gore to Thrash bands of the time in 1987 like Sepulture and Vemon. Would take a little work to fit it in and not condradict itself a few lines later, but yeah. Dace59 18:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse

The last edit removed Cannibal Corpse from the list. Is it no longer considered death metal? Spartacusprime 14:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be very silly. They're quite obviously a death metal band.Noktorn 15:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I put it back, and hopefully the user who removed it has a good enough explanation. Spartacusprime 16:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

it is a death metal band no doubt, however, 1) consider the statement in comments about the list. 2) The list consists of key bands. It is not a list of all death metal bands around, for that see, List of death metal bands. Spearhead 16:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Explain how it is not a key death metal band. Spartacusprime 17:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Explain why it would be! Anyway It may be one of the more popular bands - sales-wise that is - but it's just one of the many bands.... no need to least them here. Spearhead 17:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree; I think its popularity is cause enough to put it on the list. Spartacusprime 17:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It really should be in the list. Ask people about Death Metal bands and many will think of Cannibal Corpse. Now personally I don't like Cannibal Corpse at all, but the fact cannot be denied that they are widely acknowledged as a significant death metal band. So far I count three people in this section the Talk page who think it should be in (myself, Spartacusprime and Noktorn) and one (Spearhead) who doesn't. They are clearly a death metal band, that point itself is indisputable. I agree that this isn't just a list of all of course, but how do you define a key artist? An artist that is well known, has had high album sales, has been around for a long time and has had an impact on the genre. I'd say Cannibal Corpse fulfil all of those. Those are reasons why it should be in the list, please provide reasons it shouldn't be. Prophaniti 10:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse are a COMMERCIAL death metal band. Commercialism is one of the things death metal is supposedly against: however, Cannibal Corpse don't follow any of the values/ideals represented in true extreme metal, they just rely on making sub-standard metal with silly lyrics and album art to make money. God...the other day i saw a 14 year old girl walking around with her emo friends whilst wearing a Cannibal Corpse shirt. They are not a good representation of death metal. Technically, their music IS (mediocre) Death Metal. However, their values and quality (as seen by experienced death metal listeners) don't make them worth adding to a 'key artists' list. Isilioth

Did it say KILL written in blood? Because I think that may have been a black dahlia murder shirt. I've seen a few of them myself, and that seems more likely for a girl to be wearing. Cronos12390 05:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse are one of the most influential death metal bands of all time. If you look at the large amounts of goregrind and death metal bands out there today, almost all of them were directly influenced by Cannibal Corpse; they pretty much started the trend of writing extremely gory lyrics (and before you cite Slayer or Carcass as the starter of this trend, 1)Slayer's lyrics don't even come close to how gory Cannibal Corpse's are, and 2)Carcass never received the same recognition for their lyrics that Cannibal Corpse did). And how do YOU know that they only use the gory lyrics to get money? Are you a member of the band or something? And what "values" are the people in extreme metal bands supposed to follow? I had no idea that death metal was closed off to anybody who didn't follow a certain belief system. Basically, if you can't see the massive influence that Cannibal Corpse have had on the death metal, then take every death metal album you own by a band started after 1995 and burn them. Just because YOU don't like them and YOU don't think they're "true" to metal doesn't mean they haven't had a huge influence on the genre. Scourge441 15:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I've read the whole conversation built upon one of the World's best and most influential Death Metal band ever, the problem with Cannibal Corpse is, its a band people all know about, but not many know/heard its music, everyone talks about CC as if they're their fav band and whatever, hence the selling of Tee's and Music CD's in huge numbers which i agree is quite unusual for a Death Metal band, infact Cannibal Corpse is one Death Metal band which can be considered mainstream due to the exposure that the band has received due to the originality of their work and their touring, i pity people who posted here not wanting Cannibal Corpse on the list, firstly do u really listen to metal ? and for the people who posted about their music being routine/stupid/emo/whatever, please buy their last album, Kill. Enough said, their music does all the talking, Cheers. Drizzling Blur

What the hell?

"Death metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal that evolved out of thrash metal during the early 1980s. Today it has been reduced to what many call loud disgusting noise. Most of these artists have little to no skill on the guitar, followed by a dual-base drummer, and the perpetual screaming, moaning lead singer. If one wishes to recreate these sounds, one must simply grunt and smash a loud object."

THat needs to be changed. MC John 23:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. It was vandalism. Prolog 23:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's Get this Right

Why is correct info being removed from this article. Boston's Post Mortem (who started in 82) are one the first death metal bands in the U.S.. The Post Mortem 1986 (and it was delayed!) Coroner's Office LP pre-dates Death's "Scream Bloody Gore" and any Master LP.

Also check out:

http://www.myspace.com/ernestborgninebos

From 1986...read the scaned review in the pict section...

Some research shows that this band is thrash (e.g. metal-archives) - so it's debatable at best and a listen to the sample on myspace confirms that, imo. Google shows very little relevant links - so their actual influence is probably marginal. Also master recorded an album 1985 which was released in many years later by Displeased. Anyway provide references when making such bold statements. Spearhead 09:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The Post Mortem Coroner's Office Album was recorded in 1985 and they have released demo's from early 1982. When it was recorded does not mean much. Here is some info from Metal Maniacs magazine:

From Metal Maniacs, Feb. 2003. Opeth & Grave on cover. Article called "ThinkTank", subtitled "Sub-Division Contractors. It Focuses on various genres of Heavy Metal. Under the Death Metal section it says:

"The name Death creates lurid mind's eye images prior to hearing the actual music. The early decaying logo further stimulates the imagination. Debut album Scream Bloody Gore ('87) set a standard that has yet to be matched in the 15 years that have preceded it. It's graphic to-the-point gore shocking, not since doom punkers Post Mortem had a band dared release such thrillers of slaugther."

In many people's eyes, at the time, Post Mortem pre-dated the band Death.

Sadly, I am unable to find many of mags of the time, but, I am still looking...

Note on the definition of the genre

Despite the relative popularity of the genre worldwide, there are little to no objective sources which describe and define the genre according to musicological or even sociological (ie. 'scientific') principles. As with other musical genres, death metal has its' own magazines and other periodicals (both in print and online), but no serious and formal case study on the subject exists. This means that the definition of the (expanded) genre is subject to intense, subjective debate among fans. One only has to look at this talk page.

Often heated discussion about the roots of death metal is also commonplace because death metal started as an underground movement which was recognized, but not mainstream enough to be defined by a common consensus.

After more than twenty years of existence, those people who are involved within the death meal scene for, say, an equal period of time can be considered a knowledge base all by themselves. Call them 'authorities' if you must. Damn, I myself listen to this kind of music for almost twenty years, know a lot about it but I, too, am not a 'reference'. And since no scholar has, until now, written a thesis on death metal, references remain what they were: subjective matter. Call it anus.com or lordsofmetal.nl what you like, it still isn't objective. And because of that, this article will remain on the list of articles without enough references. Harachte 21:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Term origin and other things

Having been a death metal fan for just over 7 years now, I've often wondered, like many fans, where the term came from. It should be noted that a German compilation called "Death Metal" (which featured a number of bands that wouldn't be labeled death metal by today's standards) was releaed in 1984, and Possessed's demo, from the same year, featured the "Death Metal" track. I've also read--though this hasn't been confirmed--that members of Hellhammer/Celtic Frost ran a zine called Death Metal; this is presumably around 83 or 84 when Hellhammer was around. Secondly, I think that, as the most popular genre in extreme metal, that there should be a "Pop Culture" section which identifies referenes to death metal in contemporary culture.

don't forget the Onslaught track either - released on their 85 album and Death's demo/song Death by Metal. Spearhead 08:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There should be some form of 'reference in modern pop culture', for example the short Cannibal Corpse scene in Ace Ventura. Harachte 12:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Possessed's 1984 demo is the most likely origin. Possessed (and Death, early Morbid Angel, etc) might have been more speed metal by today's terms, but death metal really evolved slowly out of speed metal, and didn't manifest overnight. Honestly, though -- with the subject matter being approached by the speed metal bands of the early 1980's, "Death Metal" was inevitable regardless of whether the bands Death, Possessed, and etc. existed or not. (Black metal, on the other hand, would not have existed if Bathory, Celtic Frost, and maybe Sodom had not existed.)--Korey Kaczynski 07:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Subgenre List, Origin of the name

I changed some of the subgenre descriptions to (hopefully) better describe some of the subgenres. The most notable change was to Melodic Death.

I also removed the Origin of the Genre section at the bottom, since the issue of the name was brought up fairly early in the article, and having another section at the bottom seemed redundant. Scourge441 21:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations Required

I would gladly go through the article and find citations for certain things, however, I do not know which facts in the article require citation. If someone could go through the article and add the "citation needed" note on the things that require them, then I can search for sources and help fix this article. Scourge441 23:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Grindcore

There's a lot of confusion about grindcore in some metal circles and despite the fact that grind and death metal have influenced each other in one way or another, it should be clear that grindcore is a subgenre of hardcore punk music, hinted by hc bands like Cyanamid and Lärm and perfected by the likes of Fear of God and Napalm Death (who after two albums, stopped making grindcore and started making death metal instead). There's a lot of wrong information on grindcore on the internet, so please, let's do it right. Grindcore isn't "related" to death metal, besides some bands jumping ships between the two styles and isn't a metal subgenre at all. It's a form of hardcore punk. Now, I know there are bands with a strong (death) metal influence (Discordance Axis, Birdflesh, Bathtub Shitter), but that doesn't justify the mistake. So yes, let's get rid of the "grindcore" section from the article. There's a reason why lots of grindcore bands live by "0% metal" and labels like 625 and Slap-A-Ham release grindcore records. And no, Pig Destroyer and Cephalic Carnage and all that stuff isn't grindcore. Seeofseaof 19:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

More thoughts on Grindcore

While I agree that grind is not a subgenre of death metal the influence they have had with each other is undeinable. It would be inaccurate to discuess death metal without talking about grindcore. The two styles compliment each other very well and many bands have elements of both. If anything I would say grindcore exists somewhere between Death Metal and Hardcore Punk. So calling it a Hardcore punk genre wouldn't do Grindcore any justice at all. It seems the more punk a grind band is it becomes power violence and the more heavy it gets it sounds similar to death metal. Grindcore is truly a stand alone style but can be used in conjunction with other styles and deserves mention in any death metal discussion. Lampreyofdoom 18:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

--Remember this about Grindcore: It was from Crust Punk and influenced by US Hardcore's chaotic punks like SIEGE, DRI, and Crucifix. Oh, and Napalm Death combined Celtic Frost w/ SIEGE to create their invention of Grindcore. So Crust/Hardcore + Thrash Metal = Grindcore!!!

71.125.114.160 15:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)Christopher Cole

Other Fusion Genres section

I think this part either needs to be completely rewritten or just removed. The way it is now, I think it is totally unnecessary, and could be safely removed until someone with more experience can write it again. Thoughts? Scourge441 14:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Wigger Slam Metal

i think we can all agree that this genre is under-represented by the current Death Metal page. until we address this glaring deficiency, the Death Metal page is laughably incomplete. who is up to the challenge?

_____________________________________________________ I agree. Wigger slam metal is the gateway for so many kids getting into death metal, and death metal kids getting into rap metal. Never mind under-represented, wigger slam doesn't even get a passing mention.

Dying fetus? --Korey Kaczynski 07:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

www.deathmetal.org

This site has a great explanation of Death Metal right down to the Culture. plus you all need to also take a look at "Choosing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore" and you will have a strong basis on these genres from the mouth of its innovators. Here is a copy and paste of Deathmetal.org:

Death Metal: Introduction Death metal is a form of music which arose from the heavy metal movement as it went underground. Using rejected sounds and noises that resemble industrial objects, death metal bands make sonic art from twisted distortion and guttural howls of distorted vocals. While it is not radio-friendly, death metal has won itself a worldwide audience from people who admire the independent spirit and pride in self over society that death metal embraces. Metalheads across the world have started underground death and black metal bands, zines, fansites, and radio shows, promoting the metal movement to new heights below the radar of mainstream perception. Death Metal Music

Death metal is structuralist heavy metal that borrows heavily from classical and industrial music. Its heritage is equal parts neoclassical heavy metal from the 1970s and hardcore punk from the early 1980s; if you throw Discharge, Judas Priest and King Crimson into a blender and set it on "high," you might get something like death metal. It took from roughly 1983-1988 for death metal to fully evolve, and at that point, it experienced six golden years of fruitful growth before lapsing as black metal eclipsed it in popularity. The original underground musical genre, death metal was completely unknown to most people until 1997 when it became fodder for mainstream commentary after several school shootings. During the 1980s and early 1990s, it was impossible to find death metal in normal record stores and chains; most people ordered it from small mailorder companies, or "distros," that stocked underground metal exclusively. The underground in fact replicated every aspect of the normal music industry, including journalists and radio stations, to avoid being tainted by "commercial" or "mainstream" music.

We say death metal is "structuralist" because, in contrast to rock music, its goal is not a recursive rhythm riff that encourages constant intensity through verse-chorus structure; death metal, like black metal after it and prog rock and classical before it, uses "narrative" song structure, or a string of phrases connected in such a way that they effect musical and artistic change throughout the song. While rock music aims to find a sweet riff and ride it, and much of older heavy metal does the same, death metal is like opera: its goal is to use riffs to introduce more riffs, and through those, to create a treelike structure of motifs which resolve themselves to a final dominant theme. In this, death metal (like the progressive rock and synthpop bands that influenced it) is closer to classical music than rock music.

The history of rock music has been written by commercial promoters who have tried to establish its "authenticity" and uniqueness, and therefore, almost all mainstream publications are hostile to death metal. Death metal reminds us that rock music, blues and jazz did not arise autonomously in America, but were based on centuries of European popular music (the I-IV-V chord structure of the blues is derived from European folk music, and its "blues scale" is a modification of Asian and Celtic scales). Rock music is a scam, and its marketing makes it seem to be something greater than what it is, which is the same old music dressed up as a product. Death metal more than any genre before it broke from the rock tradition, and therefore is a threat to the rock establishment and its profits.

Like most musical genres in the modern time, death metal is constantly under assault not only from external interests, but from within, as self-interested people try to make rock music and dress it up as death metal. These attempts to simplify the genre would benefit those who attempt them, as they would both be able to make a saleable product (being similar to established musical tastes, it sells easily and broadly) and be able to claim the "authenticity" of belonging to an outsider form of art such as death metal. These false death metal bands have polluted the genre with the same mainstream dogma and musicality that death metal sought to escape. Like all human social breakdown, this breakdown occurs through the selfishness of individuals who are unwilling to admit that the health of the genre is more important than their personal profit.

Death metal flourished from the mid-1980s to mid-1990s, and then was for most purposes replaced by black metal. Where death metal was structuralist with heavy emphasis on chromatic phrasing and hence rhythmic, black metal used narrative construction based on melody (an innovation of later and progressive death metal bands as well, such as At the Gates, Atheist, Gorguts and Demilich). As such, it is often hard to tell where death metal ended and black metal began, although in their mature form they are distinct genres. In this, and in the aesthetic components of death metal borrowed by mainstream bands as varied as Slipknot and Nirvana, death metal lives on.

For the most complete history of heavy metal and underground history possible, consult The History of Metal by Vijay Prozak.

Death Metal History Death metal arose from the end of hardcore punk colliding with a desire to renew the spirit of metal; launched in 1969, proto-metal like Black Sabbath had become lost among hard rock (Led Zeppelin) and progressive rock (King Crimson) and needed redefining. The aggressive, oversimplified, and disconnected from contemporary music sound of hardcore punk was apt and therefore infused into heavy metal. In the process, because hardcore punk relied on streams of power chords or phrasal instead of rhythmic competition, metal became an entirely new animal. This change can be heard first in speed metal bands like Metallica, Slayer, DBC, Rigor Mortis and Nuclear Assault. Phrases got longer, songs got more intricate, and the type of riffing that repeated a rhythm using a single chord got rarer; a new form of music was in the forging. However, these bands were still too entrenched in many of the rock-influenced tendencies of metal; death metal made a clean break from these. (It is interesting to note that the ultimate point of breakaway was thrash, or hardcore punk crossover bands who wrote punkish songs with metal riffs; these reduced music so much to its essence that it had to reconstruct itself, and having grand ambitions, reached toward narrative composition instead of the hackneyed rock styles.)

During the years 1983-1985, a style emerged that was between death metal, black metal and thrash, and from this all of the succeeding genres were to derive their musical inspiration. Bathory, Sodom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost formed the basis of this style, augmented in the Americas by Possessed, Slayer and Sepultura. From these founding acts styles diversified into death and black metal. While many give credit to Venom for the term black metal, musically speaking they were rooted firmly in the heavy metal tradition.

The golden years of death metal were from 1988 to 1994, during which time the classics of the genre and all of its variations formed. Percussive death metal thundered from the industrial east coast of America; Texas produced a harsh and grating otherworldly sound; Florida created the rhythmic and alienated Tampa style of death metal. Progressive bands from the USA and melodic bands from Sweden rounded out the style, as did innumerate hybrids, including doom metal and speed metal crossovers.

However, by 1994, the genre reached a decision point: where to go so as to keep up with black metal, which had expanded into melody as quickly as death metal had expanded into rhythmic structure, and now threatened to become more popular? The death metal genre had become calcified between diehards who insisted on a narrow definition of style, and "innovators" who wanted to make it into rock music, but both groups in their efforts to control external factors forgot internal factors, and the ideology and artistic spirit of death metal as lost. As such, it appeared senile and was forgotten for some years.

At the time of this writing, death metal is practiced by a few holdovers from the late 1980s who continue to put out quality music, but their numbers decline each year. The general health of the metal community is poor because it focuses on uniqueness of external appearance and not composition and artistic integrity. While we hold out hope for a death metal revival, it is more likely that it will simply take its place in history and we will be left with recordings.

For the most complete history of heavy metal and underground history possible, consult The History of Metal by Vijay Prozak.

Death Metal Tshirts In the underground death metal subculture, the shirt you wear -- bearing the logo of a favorite band or organization or concept -- defines which strata of social accomplishment to which you belong within the death metal community. Your taste identifies your level within an intellectual hierarchy based on what its members are able to comprehend, or withstand, perhaps, musically. For example, a guy in a Cannibal Corpse tshirt might be neglected by someone wearing a Beherit tshirt because Beherit has a more esoteric and theoretically-adventurous audience than the low-brow blockhead churning of Cannibal Corpse; tshirts determine what bands your brain can accept and thus often, a type of caste identification within the hierarchy of fans. Those who try to forge this identity often find themselves answering difficult questions under unpleasant circumstances.

In the inverse situation, someone in an Atheist tshirt might laugh off someone wearing a Sarcofago tshirt as a philistine. This allows multiple communities to exist in a hierarchy within the death metal community and identify each other by sight, as well as differentiate metalheads from the hordes of drone normals who do nothing but buy Creed CDs and singing plastic fish.

The Language of Death Metal Death metal bands tend to use complex, Latinate language to describe the world in terms of its function and technologies, leaving the emotional terminology for rock music and blues. Its goal is not to affirm the emotions of the individual, but to point out the effects of structural change in the surrounding world. Not surprisingly, as a musical movement, death metal is also structuralist. Unlike rock genres, there is a near total absence of gender words and love songs. Death metal is not about emotional escapism. Death metal is about reality.

Death Metal as Art Symbols serve as an important anchor between the way a music sounds and what it represents aesthetically, including the ideas of the musicians as inspirational to their work. In death metal, there are several main categories of symbolism: the "occult," the morbid, and the technological. Death metal art -- as seen on tshirts, album covers, flyers, patches, pins and stickers -- includes all of these. The occult represents an opposition to morality; as a "nihilistic" genre, death metal musicians tend to be realists and recognize that no matter how much we classify something as morally bad or good, reality is unaffected, and whatever object is in question will serve reality at the level of function and not morality. The morbid represents another nihilistic outlook, which is that not only is death more real than our moralizations against it, but it will inevitably happen to us and we must be reminded by that. Where the occult uses pentagrams, ancient script, sigils and demonic imagery, the morbid uses disease, horror, submission and bodily corruption (including the mind/body turned against itself, as in zombie films) as its palette.

Technology makes an odd bedfellow with death metal art, as it is commonly used to modify one of the other two categories. Much as at the end of the Black Sabbath song "War Pigs," Satan is shown as laughing and spreading his wings at the slaughter of young men for profit, technology is portrayed as amoral and therefore something that can turn on humanity at any minute. Combined with morbid imagery, we have art revealing human beings as both dependent on and captive of technology; combined with the occult, we have either technology in the power of the occult, or the occult as naturalistic and opposing technological humanity.

Occultism in Death Metal Many ask "Are death metal bands satanic or occultist?" The answer is both yes and no. Death metal bands are occultist in that each of the founding bands and most to follow had an occult focus or research interest evident in their lyrics. However, few practise mysticism and most seem to use it solely as metaphorology for their works. This is convenient because our moral society, even when secular, bases its morality on Judeo-Christian mythology.

Any academic study of occultism in death metal must also take into account the range of occults employed. Judeo-christian, Babylonian, Far East, Nordic and indigenous American symbolism and ideologies appear in the lyrics and conceptual positioning of death metal bands.

For more detail on occult metaphor in heavy metal and death metal, see Satanism as Metaphor in Metal Music by Vijay Prozak.

Death Metal Ideology When heavy metal evolved in response to the hippie culture around it, it took darker themes to a new intensity and warned of apocalypse. Fifteen years later, speed metal bands were wailing about armageddon. But as Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" is different from George Orwell's "1984," death metal had accepted that the apocalypse would be a whimper, and not a bang, and that its progress was inevitable. This paranoid and soul-wrenching logic created an immediate need to overcome the superstition and self-pity of a complacent age. in consequence, as if approaching Nietzsche's "abyss" and going under instead of over, these bands have embraced a philosophy of nihilism and a delight in the intellectual, sensual and spiritual extremes of a dying age.

From this, much can be learned about a human future: nihilism frees us from much of our fear by confronting it head-on. Death metal bands have created an epic change in american subculture from one of morality to one of existential self-assertion, but further, the "gore" lyrics of many bands have targeted social denial of collective fear of death.

Ideology serves an important place in the generation of lyrics and concept to each band. for most, the personal is political in choice of music, intellectual aspirations within it, and values as expressed in themes of darkness, death, the occult, war, genocide and suffering. Death metal reflects a lineage to hardcore music, yet its heavy metal side shows in the use of the personal rather than collective as a means of communication.

That death metal has not collapsed on its own inertia, or become morality-driven and thus socially conformist like emocore or "life metal" bands, is a small miracle in a time of overwhelming commercial motivation to human efforts. Its underground remains strong and defiantly independent. As more people in society feel the need to withdraw from decaying mainstream values and behaviors, death metal's ideology offers a glimpse of a nihilistic but impressively un-neurotic future.

For more information, see The Philosophical Tradition of Heavy Metal by Vijay Prozak.

Copyright © 2000-2006 Dark Legions Archive

THERE YOU HAVE IT! 71.125.114.160 15:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)Christopher Cole, I don't like Death Metal as much as I love Deathrock/Horror Punk and Grindcore

Tiamat

Why the hell Tiamat is not mentioned?!? Actually they were very crucial band in the Sweden's death metal scene.

Are not death metal???? Tiamat WERE death metal band and if you do'nt believe ,then go listen to Severe Abomination (1989) (Actually this was originally their demo under the name of "Treblinka", where they playing the black metal, but after the splitupping, Johan "Hellslaughter" Edlund get the new inspiration of the 80's death metal, get the phone communication for the band guys of Treblinka and suggest, that would they playing the death metal, as the band buddies were at that time also playing the death metal in some acts (Unleashed for exp.), they agree and finally Johan change the name "Tiamat" and they start to playing death metal, and recording this debut album on the name of sophomore demo) Sumerian Cry (1990) and The Astral Sleep by yourself and say still that Tiamat were never death!!!!

They were initially an acclaimed Death Metal band. The first two albums are Scandinavian Death.

And..

I m sorry that i repeat ,but the article does'nt come up when i've posted it.

Notable Death bands...

Perhaps Opeth should be added? As a prog-death/melodeath band of no small stature, I think they need to be added to the list, especially for their pioneering use of acoustic instruments. Or am I missing out on an early death band using acoustic passages? I'll leave it up to you 'experts' (I say that in good humor, everyone's a self-titled expert, but you guys have a good record) to decide. If nobody takes note of this comment I'll add them in a few weeks.

Well, since the list got removed, I guess I won't add them. NightfyreX 23:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

They're not death metal. --Korey Kaczynski 07:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I've having trouble logging in, but this is NightfyreX. What the hell are they if not death? Progressive death metal is still death metal. 11:41 EST, 11 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.172.205 (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Deth metal?

Someone keeps adding the following sentence in te Characteristcs part: "Originally created and defined as "Deth Metal" and often misspelled and marketed from then on as "Death Metal""

My concerns: The sentence is

• not sourced;
• misplaced (is it a DM characteristic?);
• inconsistent with the rest of the article ("There are three common theories... ...band never pursued a death metal approach"
• not suited as intro of the body content.

I couldn't find any sources... Any opinions? Emmaneul ^(Talk) 07:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, whoever is adding it is either a troll or a moron. "Deth Metal" has never existed, and proof is with Possessed's 1984 "Death Metal" demo. (And maybe, also, the band Death --Korey Kaczynski 07:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Stupid genres

"3.1 Melodic death metal 3.2 Scandinavian death metal 3.3 Florida death metal 3.4 Technical death metal 3.5 Progressive death metal 3.6 Brutal death metal 3.7 Slam death metal 3.8 Death/Doom 3.9 Blackened death metal 3.10 Other fusion genres"

Only Scandanavian DM, Florida DM, and Technical DM should be listed. The first two should be listed as important scenes that developed unique sounds (not really a genre insofar a style) and Technial DM is, while not a genre either, an important style of DM. "Brutal DM" is a meaningless, subjective term. Slam death metal is stupid, too. Blackened death, while I understand adding it, is hardly much of style and most of the bands listed under it are either BM or DM bands, and not "blackened death" bands. Melo-death is really heavy emetal pretending to be death metal. Doom/death is really just death metal with "doom metal" elements.

If you REALLY have to have "melodic-death metal," at least make about bands like necrophobic, at the gates, and sentenced. Children of Bodom isn't even death metal (and neither is arch enemy, in flames, and dark tranquility).

I won't do it because I don't want to deal with an edit war.--Korey Kaczynski 07:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This article really needs improvement. I must agree, Scandanavian and Florida should be listed, preferably not as genre but as important source of DM and its development. I have no problem with whatever genre as long as every genre is sourced. Now there are no sources at all. And indeed death/doom and blackened death metal are fusion genres and should not be listed unless listed in a separate fusion section.

We need sources for melodic death metal, technical death metal, progressive death metal, brutal death metal, slam death metal... and we need to get rid of bandcruft. I think every listed band should be backed up by a reliable source. It shouldn't be a matter of opinion. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 10:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Cradle of Filth

"Cradle of Filth incorperate the same song style into black metal, with rythmic choruses and many guitar solos remenescient of bands from earliest times, to create what might be known as melodic black metal". Vandalizing?

COF isn't black metal and has nothing to do with Death Metal.--Korey Kaczynski 19:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Brutal Death Metal Definition

Terms such as this, and "slam death metal," are somewhat vague terms that I think are used more by the fans than the musicians. There is a generally agreed upon definition on what "death metal" or "grindcore" or "black metal" is, but when it comes to sub-genres, there can be some confusion, as the differences between them can be subtle or ambiguous. It makes me wonder if a clear definition can be made as to what qualifies as such. 209.30.153.219 17:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

I don't think this article is ever going to be encyclopedic. Hardly any sources, original research, constant vandalism, bandcruft etc. make this article scream for a rewrite. I've started a prototype article at User:Emmaneul/Death metal based on the black metal article. I'm changing it sentence after sentence, step by step, using sources along the way. I'm planning to reuse the good parts of the actual DM article where I can.

If you would like to comment/help, please do, it can be done here or on User talk:Emmaneul/Death metal. Note that for now, only the intro has been rewritten, I'll change the rest when I have more time. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Good Job!I shall Mezmerize you! My edits shall Mezmerize you!! My articles shall Mezmerize you!!! 22:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm still working on the history part. I've finished the early history. The history around the late 80's is more complex, with a lot more bands getting into DM, different scenes, important studios, and the emergence of influential grindcore bands like Napalm Death and Carcass. It might take some time (and I didn't have much time lately) to finish the article. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 22:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Death Metal is not characteristically fast...

I disagree with this sentiment, I know it only says that Death metal bands are OFTEN identified by fast riffing/percussion, but to me, my favourite Death Metal bands have always played in a slow to mid-tempo vein, never approaching the speed of Morbid Angel etc.

I think a clear distinction should be mentioned here about the two trains of thought, whether Death metal 'should' be played fast or slow. Obviously not phrased like that, but I believe many bands who begun playing early in the history of the genre have NEVER been known for any of the above 'fast riffing/percussion' styles for the majority of their existence.

You could go on to argue that incorparating Doom elements were the reason for this change, in which case does that make every Death Metal band which predominantly plays in a slow to mid-tempo range a Doom/Death metal band? Bands like Grave and Bolt Thrower (yes, Bolt Thrower are Death metal, elements of their grindcore days largely disappeared by the 'IVth Crusade' album) for example are well known for their slow to mid-tempo riffs/beats (OCCASIONALY dipping into faster playing).

Many older Death Metal fans would argue that this 'slower' style of playing is actually one of the earliest incarnations of the genre, with many labelling bands who play in this style as 'old-school' Death Metal. Now I don't want to suggest including a sub-genre called 'old-school Death metal', because that would just be plain wrong. But it seems to me there is a clear divergence among the early Death Metal camp (highlighted clearly between many European Death Metal and US Death Metal acts (with the clear exception of Autopsy and Obituary) about how Death Metal should be played/interpreted. European bands GENERALLY preferring to play Death metal in a more 'primitive' style in contrast with bands like Morbid Angel, Death (later), Monstrosity etc.

I don't want an entire article about it, but maybe just some mention of the difference would be nice, even if you do want to attribute all these bands as 'Doom/death metal', thats upto you, but to say that Death Metal, especially in its infancy was primarily focused on faster riffing and percussion is wrong imo. Bottom line is, you don't need to have blast-beats to be a Death metal band.

ps. there should be some mention of Sadus under the 'influences' section.

I'm not sure what you consider early death metal, and why it wouldn't be fast. Proto-death metal, proto-black metal, NWOBHM, and thrash metal bands in the early 80ies, the bands that paved the road to death metal (like Venom, Possessed, Bathory, Slayer, Kreator, Sodom, other thrash bands, and earlier bands in the late 70ies/early 80ies like Motörhead, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Diamond Head) where playing fast music, faster then the heavy metal bands around at that time. When death metal matured in the mid to late 80ies it still was fast, played by bands such as Death, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Necrophagia, and Sepultura. Speed was a generally accepted trait. The only pre-90ies exceptions that come to mind are Obituary and Celtic Frost who incorporated slow part but still had (a lot of) fast parts.

Death metal is a genre where speed is a common trait. Death metal is known for its speed, just like thrash metal and black metal. You're right, not all the bands are fast all the time, but the majority of death metal bands are.

By the way, "death metal is fast" is not implying all death metal is like Nile or Spawn of Possession. It's fast compared to other rock/metal genres. In general (mainstream) music has tempi between 90 and 140[2] (not a good source, I know, but it's an indication). Faster tempi are very common in extreme metal.

It's totally appropriate to consider death metal fast. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 13:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

yeah thats fair enough man, but i mean this article gives a little a bit of a one-sided impression about the music is all I'm on about. I'm sorry if I came across in any way to detract death metal bands of that 'style', I love bands like Morbid Angel and Death (one of my fav bands lol), but I dunno, it just seems to me that the article could mention that for example: 'although for many death metal bands speed is an important factor, some incorparate almost doom like dirges and have more of a focus on mid-tempo riffing.' I know thats a bit sketchy, but thats the general idea.

But yeah, Death Metal bands like Autopsy (band) (who had a big influence on the swedish scene), Asphyx, Grave (band) and even early Therion seem to take a different approach and they were (I think) around pre-90s and playing in this slow to mid-tempo style.

Maybe theres not really enough to go on there, but I think it would be worth mentioning the European scene a bit more anyway, I know the Scandinavian scene is covered (although a mention of Darkthrone's first and only foray into Death metal on 'Soulside Journey' could be mentioned here aswell I think), but it might be worthwhile to look at the rest of EU aswell. Metal Gimp 16:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Death/Doom

I removed Novembers Doom and Swallow The Sun because they have not created the genre. They are more recent. And also removed Sentenced and Amorphis because they were never a death/doom metal band nor did any useful contribution. Viriatus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.136.128.14 (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Sub generas

Florida death metal and scandinavian death metal are not sub generas! they are regenal scenes and should be listed as such for example amon amarth is a melodeath band and their scene is scandinavian death metal.