Talk:Craig Ferguson/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Dubiety of dual citizenship

The article claims that Ferguson has dual citizenship of the U.S. and U.K., however, the Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America contains the following text: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen". Ferguson has explicitly sworn to renounce his former British citizenship, thereby rejecting dual citizenship. — O'Dea (talk) 08:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Not sure how to reconcile that. The State Department mentions on their dual nationality page that "a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth." USA.gov mentions that "U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another." On the oath's own page, it says "In certain circumstances there can be a modification or waiver of the Oath of Allegiance." Finally, see a video of Craig's verbal oath on YouTube. None of the "renounce and abjure" language was spoken. — Huntster (t @ c) 09:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
It is difficult to reconcile the strict and explicit terms of the official legal instrument, the oath of allegiance, and the remarks at the websites you mention. A Wikipedia editor attempting to do so would be engaging in original research. The binding oath ("I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any ... state.") appears to stand in stark contradiction to the claim that "U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another."
We cannot be sure that the Youtube video is unedited, and Youtube is not encouraged by WP:VIDEOREF ("There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube ... when citing sources. However ... links should be carefully and individually evaluated for inclusion"). It is curious that the video (interesting in itself) appears to suggest that part of the official text of the oath was omitted, but this could be a result of editing for convenient presentation on Ferguson's comedy programme, if they cut ahead to the meat of the oath. Interpreting the video would also be original research.
I am inclined to doubt that this occasion was an example of "certain circumstances" where "there can be a modification or waiver of the Oath." The ceremony looked like a routine mass processing of three thousand people in a standard format, with no suggestion of bespoke cases being catered to under unusual "certain circumstances".
Larry King asked Ferguson directly, "Do you have dual citizenship now?" and Ferguson cast doubt on the idea: "No, well, I guess I do, technically. I don't know. I didn't think about it. I don't think of it as being dual. I'm an American citizen." He continued, "I'm not a dual citizen because -- and I don't want to be, because I swore that I would fight any foreign potentate." If the man himself says "I don't think of it as being dual" and reinforces that with the explicit rejection, "I'm not a dual citizen", then the claim in Wikipedia that he has dual citizenship looks very weak. On the basis of his own remarks, I have been bold and removed the unsupported claim of duality. It can be restored if some kind of proven clarity can be obtained that clearly falsifies Ferguson's own statements. — O'Dea (talk) 11:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
It is not possible to hold a passport in one country without being a citizen of it. So if possession of a passport indicates citizenship, dual citizenship is a fact of life. Three naturalized citizens I know of have dual citizenship with the US and their native country (Ireland, Britain, Australia), and I am sure that others have done the same because it simplifies travel to and from the US to their native country. I understand the confusion but because of what actually happens I don't pay it any mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.66.35.6 (talk) 15:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
If the U.S. State Dept has a section acknowledging dual citizenship, I'm inclined to believe it. Furthermore, I have not heard of Mr. Ferguson renouncing his original citizenship. Therefore, unless there is further evidence, I would hold as fact that Mr. Ferguson holds dual citizenship. Apparently, nobody here has heard of people renouncing citizenships - Prof. Einstein would be a prime example, renouncing his German citizenship in 1896 to avoid conscription.
Christopher, Salem, OR (talk) 07:58, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Nationality in lead paragraph

Per the WP:OPENPARA guidelines at WP:MOSBIO, it states that the nationality of an individual is the citizenship which they held at the time they became notable. If a subject changed or added a citizenship after they became notable, we do not put it in the lead sentence, but rather later in the lead or in the article body itself. However, while the guideline is quite clear, the phrase "Scottish-born American television host" should be accurate enough. Rather than getting involved in an edit war, I am taking this discussion here to see if anyone can voice their opinion on this matter per WP:BRD. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:09, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The lead sentence now reads "Scottish television host [...] based in the United States." I believe this still reads as if the show is in Scotland. I'd like to see if we can reach a consensus that "Scottish-born American" is the correct way to word this sentence. — Bill W. (Talk) (Contrib)  –  21 May 2024, 14:25 (UTC)
I've reverted the IP's change as making things less clear. If a consensus to change is reached, that's great, but right now I believe the current wording is the most clear. — Huntster (t @ c) 23:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Just reverted IP edit changing his national origin from Scotland to England. The note present on the edit was, "Changed Scottish to British (Using Scottish / English / Welsh to describe nationality is akin to saying someone is Texan / Coloradan etc." which ignores consensus, it also ignores the fact that Scotland is an independent nation, it is not England, but it is part of the United Kingdom. By the rationale of the IP editor, Canada, Mexico and the US are all the US when documenting where someone was born. One could argue less if the UK were listed as his place of birth, as it would be technically correct, if less precise.Wzrd1 (talk) 02:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Just changed it back again after a new user, perhaps your IP user, changed it again to British. Be vigilant. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  — 03:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Not, it says British(Scotland), American. Technically correct under the British nationality law, though inaccurate as American, the link goes to USA, so I changed that to the more standard USA for that. That is one of this US citizen's pet peeves, using the inaccurate "American" to refer to US citizenship, which ignores two other nations in North America and the entirety of Central and South America.Wzrd1 (talk) 11:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

<snark> Wait, there's other countries in North America besides the U.S.?? Murrca! </snark> — Huntster (t @ c) 23:13, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
<snark>Yes, why indeed, there seems to be four people in the US who comprehend that concept. Previously, it was confirmed to have been only three.</snark>Wzrd1 (talk) 23:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

United States is not a term of nationality, it is a place. The usual term for people from that place, used around the world, is American. Before we change the "Nationality" in the infobox, we should discuss it here. You are correct that technically everyone from North and South America is an American of some sort. But there is currently no other word in use in English to describe the nationality of people from the United States. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  — 00:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The United States is fully called the United States of America, but is often called the United States or US. When I look at Albert Einstein, he has seven citizenships counted, counting stateless and the United States. When I was abroad, many didn't quite get "American", but most certainly understood US clearly. Granted, the sample size is small, being a half dozen nations, one European, the rest in Southwest Asia and Africa, but all clearly understood US over American. I used Einstein's page for an example, as you can see from his infobox, he is listed as a last citizenship as United States. Still, we should have consensus. Or at least a policy in place. I'm reviewing WP:citizenship and nationality now and see I have some more homework to do to figure out which is the proper term for US citizen, "American" or United States, though my passport says United States of America, that is not legal or customary guidance. I do see that my interpretation on Scotland or United Kingdom| Scotland was correct per the guidance. Anyone else have some input on the proper styling for US citizen?Wzrd1 (talk) 02:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
My bad, somehow, I failed to notice that WP:citizenship and nationality was a failed proposal. But, the issue does raise an interesting point. Encyclopedia is a clear, concise, and overall consistent collection of tomes. Definitions do not vary between biographies. Regrettably, we do have that present in Wikipedia, as has been shown today with the British, English, United Kingdom, Scottish and United States, American disputes. I approached the issue in WP:village pump to suggest a more uniform, concise and both accurate and respectful of certain societal usages of citizenship (tell a Scot he's British, your nose will be bent quite quickly). My suggestion was along the lines of United Kingdom|Scotland. It's accurate, concise, obeys the laws of the United Kingdom and her customs and satisfies any cultural pride issues present. The same could even be applied to Canada|Quebec or more absurd sounding to us, United States|New Jersey. Hmm, come to think of it, considering some of the upstate New Jersey types, maybe it is a different land. (end joke) In support of United States, I submit J. Robert Oppenheimer and Enrico Fermi's pages as well. You're welcome to join me on WP:village pump to discuss standardizing nationalities on Wikipedia, I can use all of the additional brain cells that I can get!Wzrd1 (talk) 03:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, since Ferguson is Scottish and American, I boldly changed it to "Scottish and American" since I think that is consistent with WP:MOSBIO. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:53, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't comment here before changing back. The current wording is accurate and grammatically consistent with the first part of WP:MOSBIO which states, "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen," so saying he is an American would be proper because he is a citizen. But Scottish-born is also accurate and notable. So leaving both seems to keep most editors happy. Considering the structure of the sentence using "Scottish and American" implies that he is a television host in both places. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  — 01:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
I see what you mean now. I think we should keep the current wording unless there is consensus to change it. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:09, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for coming to this late, but why in the infobox is it British(Scotland) American? It should be British, American. Murry1975 (talk) 17:33, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Not according to every Scot I've ever met.Wzrd1 (talk) 01:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Beware the McWikipedia mafia. Third only to the O'Wikipedia and iWikipedia mafias. He is a Scottish-born Scotsman from Scotland, damn you! 86.2.64.179 (talk) 01:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
McWikipedia or MacWikipedia? What about the Wikipedio mafia?Wzrd1 (talk) 01:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

New discussion of nationality in the lead sentence

Can we change the lead from "Scottish-born American" to "Scottish-American" because Scottish-born American suggests that he is of American origin (meaning his parents are American) when he was born and bred in Scotland to Scottish parents and still retains his Scottish accent. He is a Scottish-American, not an American born in Scotland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.70.227 (talk) 16:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"Scottish-born" simply means born a Scottish citizen, it does not imply anything about his parentage. Per Wiktionary it means, "Born in or native to the place indicated." His parentage is clearly explained in the body of the article, so I don't believe any change is needed. Please wait for some other editors to express an opinion before making any further changes. We want to continue to have consensus among the editors who are interested in this article. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  — 16:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
As explained perfectly by Wilson, this is a succinct phrase which is explained in detail in the article body. Scottish-American is not nearly as useful to the reader, in my opinion...it has been tried in the past and did not work well. Before I placed that phrase in the article, there were near-continuous battles to change the wording, and since then things have calmed down considerably. I think that is the best metric here. — Huntster (t @ c) 18:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Religon

Says it in this clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWUMWZK3QjQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.32.73 (talk) 11:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Craig Ferguson's Natioanltiy

Why does it say he's a "Scottish-born American" if he was born and raised a Scotsman and only moved to the United States as an adult. "Scottish-born" simply implies that he was born there, nothing more. That is not the case. He grew up in Scotland. Why doesn't it say he's a "Scottish-American". That is actually accurate in relation to his nationality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellie01 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Because that's the consensus that was reached during several lengthy discussions on this page. The most recent of which is in the February 2014 archive. In a nutshell it is the best wording that succinctly describes his nationality and also fits grammatically in the sentence without causing confusion. If you'd like to propose new wording, you can do it here. There are several editors following this page who will be happy to participate in the discussion. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  (User:Wtwilson3)  — 12:06, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

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"Scottish-born American"

WP:OPENPARA says "previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability". He was Scottish when he became a notable person, so that's relevant; that he was born in Scotland is not. Also, he did not so far as I can see lose his previous nationality when he was naturalised as a US citizen, but "Scottish-born American" could imply he used to be Scottish but is now only American. "Scottish-American" would be a better opening descriptor in my view and more in line with our Manual of Style. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:58, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Per Scottish Americans the term applies to Americans of Scottish descent and would therefore belie his birthplace. There are lengthy discussions in the archives where this has been debated. What we have now was the consensus of the editors at the time. We can certainly discuss it again. I for one prefer the current wording. There is a strong lobby among editors against any minimizing of his Scottish birth (not that your suggestion would necessarily do that, but some may say it does). —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  (User:Wtwilson3)  — 22:02, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
How is it relevant to his notability where he was born? So far as I can see it isn't, therefore it's against the Manual of Style to clumsily bung it in the first sentence like this. Why not just put "Born and raised in Scotland" at the start of the second sentence to remove any confusion? This isn't minimalising his birthplace or anything of the sort, after all the actually pertinent thing is where Ferguson grew up, was educated etc. "Scottish-born" puts the split at birth and could equally mean he moved to the US aged 2. In fact he was already a professional when he left for the US and became a US citizen only in 2008. Consensus can change. I'm all for a new discussion. Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  05:49, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
The phrase does not, in and of itself, imply anything. The issue is fully clarified in the very next section, exactly where it should be. — Huntster (t @ c) 02:00, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
So why not use "Scottish-American" instead in that case, if the issue is fully clarified? I'm afraid I don't see how this is somehow "hiding" anything about Ferguson. Readers can look five inches across their screens and see in the infobox he was born in Glasgow. And is anyone going to answer the point about this phrase in the opening sentence going against WP:OPENPARA? —  Cliftonian (talk)  06:12, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Anyone? —  Cliftonian (talk)  06:05, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to take that as a no. I am therefore being bold and removing the reference to birthplace from the opening sentence per WP:OPENPARA, specifically where it says "previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability". I'm changing to the wording "Scottish-American". Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  15:56, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

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Nationality

Ferguson is a naturalised citizen having obtained in 2008. Should the headline Scottish-American not be changed to simply just Scottish, he still holds dual citizenship now obviously, but is technically only American by naturalisation. Should this be changed, if not why. Stuv3 (talk) 09:15, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Dual citizenship is exactly the reason this term was settled on. Please review these discussions going back as far as 2009 for the reasons that editors reached consensus on this issue. If you have something new to add, please feel free to continue the dialog. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  (User:Wtwilson3)  — 11:28, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
There is no such thing as Scottish citizenship Bill. It doesn't exist. Maybe learn what words mean before marching round telling people off for making factual changes to articles, and accusing them of being "nonconstructive" because it upsets your personal politics. Take some time off to polish your jackboots. 82.10.117.175 (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia has policies about civility and personal attacks, which you'll need to become familiar with before any other point you wish to make will be heard. –Jason A. Quest (talk) 01:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism

This user was blocked - 4 times! - but their edit wasn't reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:2120:DF90:FD69:A04C:8C6B:52EB

Their edit contained at least one piece of false information, so the entire content of the edit needs to be verified: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Craig_Ferguson&diff=prev&oldid=852612641

Craig Ferguson is not in the Saints Row credits, and in my opinion the character "Crazy Carl" does not sound like Craig. User452 (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

Note: Part of this discussion was archive to Talk:Craig Ferguson/Archives/2020/January. It was erroneously restored, resulting in two copies of the same conversation. This notice is here for clarity so that the discussion is still intact while simultaneously removing the duplicated comments. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the policy violations but the point he/she is making is not wrong. According to the guidelines suggested in WP:UKNATIONALS the nationality of Mr.Ferguson is definitely Scottish but there is also no doubt that he is British. Legally in today's time the only citizenship a Scottish person may have is of Britain. The question of Nationality however can be very confusing and the debate can go on and on. I looked at the previous archived discussion on this topic, as mentioned in an above comment, but surprisingly never found any discussion on the specific matter of British v. Scottish nationality. In my belief it's reasonable to include both the nationalities in the infobox. It could be written like Scottish(British) or Scottish/British or Scottish and British or in two separate lines. I would like to see a consensus formed on this and therefore will be very much happy to see others contributing to this discussion. Excluding ""British" completely from his nationality seems very disturbing to me as he is inherently as much of a British as he is Scottish. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 10:54, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
The fact that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom is very common knowledge, and the likelihood of someone actually being confused is vanishingly small. In the unlikely event that someone doesn't know this, listing both "Scottish" and "British" is only going to confuse them more. Instead, we use either the more specific term or the more general one, depending on which fits the individual better. Using both would be redundant for the sake of being pedantic. Magic9Ball (talk) 15:34, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
That is in no way a valid argument for not giving details in an Encyclopedia. Being pedantic is actually the desired characteristic as an editor in WP. Even if I agree with the idea of having a single word to designate nationality I would slide heavily towards "British" as it is the legally valid term. I know that "Nationality" have no obligation to be legally valid and that's why I propose to have another field in the Infobox namely "Citizenship" or completely replace "Nationality" with it. It would leave no room for ambiguity and will be the best solution for this problem. I would very much like to hear if anybody has any counterargument to my proposal.SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 16:53, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Pedantry is generally only desired by Wikipedia editors (and only in themselves). By contrast, Wikipedia readers appreciate editors writing with them in mind, which generally means avoiding excess clutter and not needlessly insulting their intelligence. Anyway, if you're proposing that WP's infoboxes be changed, or that we start using kludges such as "Scottish(British)", this article is the wrong place to do that. But if you do take it to Template:Infobox person or WP:UKNATIONALS, be prepared to explain what actual problem – other than you being "very disturbed" at not seeing the word "British" – this is supposed to to solve. Magic9Ball (talk) 19:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
I believe you're misunderstanding the issue here. I am not talking about changing the infobox or any of that sorts nor am I trying to insult the intelligence of the readers. I am also not "very disturbed" but is somewhat "mildly disturbed" by the fact that "British" is not included as his nationality, the reason for which I have given beleow. I am also not in or against favour of the "kludge" "Scottish(British)". It was just an example among a bunch of others that I recommended; cherrypicking it doesn't make any sense as far as my point is concerned. I am talking about the non involvement of "British" as Mr.Ferguson's nationality because he actually is a British National. There can be ambiguity regarding his "Scottish" nationality as Scotland is not a country in a general sense, but there can be no ambiguity about him being a "British" National. Also I dont understand how my recommendation violated WP:RF. If anything it provides support for my recommendation as people("them") who are reading the article may not be familiar with the intricacies of Scotland and Britain thereby getting confused when they see his birthplace to be in Britain but his nationality to being just Scottish. Clearing the confusion is a very much justifiable reason to involve a little bit of "clutter". I even said about inputting another category namely "Citizenship" to clear the confusion, upon which you have not commented in your reply. If you or anyone else have no problem regarding that then I will incorporate the said category in the infobox.SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 14:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Where Craig currently lives

One sentence says he lives in the Hollywood Hills near his ex-wife. Another says he moved back to Scotland in 2019. The later sentence sounds recent and the former outdated as his child with the first wife is 18 or 19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.48.102.49 (talk) 01:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

Surely he should be described as Scottish-born British-American. I haven't seen any dual-nationality celebrities on Wikipedia described as English-American or Welsh-American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:fb1:40:b47:dfa:33c6:ec2f:9946 (talk) 03:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

- I agree and have changed this accordingly, he is Scottish born so have amended to Scottish born American naturalised and under nationality Scottish, British & American --KaraokeMac (talk) 20:53, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I changed to Scottish-American. Two reasons: a) Scottish Americans is actually a thing, b) "Scottish-born American" is more suited, and indicative of, an American citizen with American heritage who happened to be born in Scotland, which Craig Furguson is clearly not. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
yeah, scottish-american usually means 2d gen, 3d gen, etc born in the US, but it is also widely used for immigrants FROM scotland as well.
i'd prefer "american born in scotland" myself. perhaps with "naturalized" up front, depending on context. 2601:19C:527F:A660:4D61:BD28:BA7F:4ADB (talk) 06:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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