Talk:College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS/Archive 2014

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Playoff incorporation revamp

What sort of timetable should we be looking at to incorporate all the changes for next season that will come with the playoff system? I think it's likely that anonymous editors will be trying to add playoff information sooner rather than later, so perhaps we should get our thoughts together on how we would like it to be organized? Dolenath (talk) 15:20, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Georgia's Claims

Georgia's media guide (link below) technically lists all 5 championships (page 192), but it has a special shaded section for "The Consensus National Champions". I don't think it's really claiming 1927, 1946, and 1968 as much as it is reporting what the NCAA Records Book says. Check it out and see what you think:

http://issuu.com/georgiadogs/docs/uga_football_web-final4

Dolenath (talk) 03:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

For anyone else looking, the claims are listed in to places on pages 158-163 and again on 190. From the media guide, "However, most don't realized that over the more than 100-year history of Georgia football, five Bulldog teams have actually been declared national champions at season's end by at least one of the national polls recognized by the National College Football Hall of Fame and included in the official NCAA Football Record Book. Two of those, 1980 and 1942, were consensus selections being chosen by at least half of the recognized polls. Three other Georgia teams - 1927, 1946, and 1968, were recognized by polls such as the Williamson, based on a power ratings system, and the Litkenhous, a difference-by-score formula."

Since the NCAA and the National College Football Hall of Fame recognize the claims, I think that it is Georgia's claim. I see no reason why this would be an issue. But....that's just my opinion. -- ТимофейЛееСуда. 14:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone know if there are any banners in their stadium/school claiming championships? Dolenath (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus National Championships, which have a very specific definition in the NCAA Records Book to be applicable only to a specific period of time (namely the dual poll era 1950-present), have nothing to do with what a school claims as national championships for itself, particularly for years proceeding 1950. The wording "...five Bulldog teams have actually been declared national champions at season's end" suggests that Georgia does at least recognize them, if not precisely stating a "claim" that would best clarify the issue for the purposes of this article. Conversely, there is little indication that Georgia does not claim them, only that it more strongly highlights its Consensus Champions. In fact Georgia seems to make a point to specifically label them as "The Consensus National Champions" and not simply "National Champions", suggesting perhaps other national championships apart from the Consensus ones, and I think that is an important distinction, along with the fact that the five champions are listed in multiple places in the media guide. I think it is safest to list a claim of 5. The footnote is provided to provide further explanation in this case, and allows the reader to make the judgement. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The wording "...five Bulldog teams have actually been declared national champions at season's end" is not entirely true, as regards the major selectors. Of those listed for 1927, the only non-retroactive ones appear to be Dickinson and Houlgate, and they did not select the Bulldogs. So it seems that in 1927 Georgia was not declared national champion "at season's end by at least one of the national polls recognized by the National College Football Hall of Fame." FWIW

Jeff in CA (talk) 00:14, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Georgia has only 2 national championships in school history (1942, 1980).

725edwards {talk} 4:07, 29 September 2014 (CST)

Does CFDW explain what goes into its prodigious research on "recognized" champions?

It was stated in an earlier discussion that CFDW backs up their "recognized" selections with prodigious research. Could someone please provide a link to CFDW's explanation of the research methods it uses to arrive at its list of "recognized national champions?" I am curious about its inclusion/exclusion policy.

One would think that CFDW has an objective way to determine, e.g., that two of Princeton's 28 national championships should not be recognized, while 9 of Yale's 27 national championships should not be recognized. After cursory and unsatisfactory inspection of the article's data, I did not ascertain a rule-of-thumb that may apply. Also, what are CFDW's criteria to recognize additional titles for seven schools that appear not to claim them, as well as to concur with Penn's 1907 title claim that appears to be supported erroneously in the Penn Football Media Guide by attribution to Billingsley. (The NCAA Record Book and the Billingsley website both show the selection of Harvard by BR in 1907. Does CFDW say why it has recognized the admittedly deserving 1907 Quaker team?) I know it may seem as though I am complaining, but I am not. I am simply intrigued by what I have observed and would like to learn more.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

CFDW champions and criteria. UW Dawgs (talk) 23:16, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Further - as much as I admire Jeff in CA's thoroughness and expertise, he is raising issues that do not pertain directly to this article except in one possible way. He is asking questions here that must be directed to and can be answered only by the proprietors of CFBDW. No editor who works on this article (unless s/he is a contributor to CFBDW) can answer in any way why that site recognizes some claims and not others. The net result to this article of Jeff in CA's research might be a proposal from him or a like-minded editor to disallow reference here to CFBDW and hence to remove that section from the article as unworthy of inclusion on the basis of its lack of consistency and reliability. The section in this article now simply reports and lists the findings of CFBDW and offers minimal background on the site, including the caveat that "Please note that the CFBDW list of Recognized Champions does not confer any additional legitimacy to the titles." But I am at a loss to understand why an editor at Wikipedia could answer questions posed here by Jeff in CA about why CFBDW has made the decisions that it has. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 06:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Jeff in CA, I think it would be better to ask "Why are you including CFDW when they're so inconsistent (see examples below)?" instead of asking why they are inconsistent, which none of us will have an answer to. Do we need to start a vote on whether or not to include CJDW? Dolenath (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

CFDW Inconsistencies

TCU's "recognized" titles by CFDW

The edit that I made to include the second of TCU's two titles (1935, 1938) in the table was reverted. A helpful note was provided: "This section's source links to http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/nchamps_year.php, TCU only 1938. This part represents CFDW consensus."

However, when I view that website, I see the following:

Year	Team	Selector
1935	Texas Christian	National Champions
1936	Minnesota	National Champions
1936	Pittsburgh (PA)	National Champions
1937	California	National Champions
1937	Pittsburgh (PA}	National Champions
1938	Tennessee	National Champions
1938	Texas Christian	National Champions

It does seem as though TCU should be listed as having two titles.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:54, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jeff in CA - My error. Apologies - I followed your link and got to TCU's individual page but followed the primary link to the "Years" page. I misread the entry and reverted - I checked again, found that you were right, and reverted back to your correct edit. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 00:14, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

1907 Penn

In the CFDW list of recognized national champions, why is Penn included for 1907? There were no major selectors who chose Penn. Penn erroneously claims Billingsley for 1907 in its media guide, but Billingsley went with Harvard in 1907. Wilson, Howell and Nutshell are the only 1907 Penn selectors shown by CFDW (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/yearly_results.php?year=1907). This is at odds with CFDW’s stated recognition criteria at http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/national_champs_assessment.php.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

1916 Army

The 1916 selection of Army is included in the CFDW list of recognized national champions. This is at odds with CFDW’s stated recognition criteria (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/national_champs_assessment.php), as neither HAF nor NCF selected Army for 1916. Inspection of the information at http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/yearly_results.php?year=1916 shows that CFRA selected Army in 1916. In order for CFDW to recognize Army’s 1916 title, it would seem that CFDW should re-state its recognition criteria to start with CFRA in 1916, rather than 1919.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Overriding early contemporaneously known national champions

For two seasons (1877 and 1890), the CFDW “recognized” list overrides the team that was commonly understood to be the undisputed national champion in a contemporary list published circa 1894 (Princeton and Yale, respectively; CFDW elevates 1877 Yale to co-champion). (See reproduction of list at http://www.secsportsfan.com/support-files/special_edition.pdf, IFRA, The College Football Historian, Special Edition, November 2008 , p. 14.) Walter Camp, Amos Alonzo Stagg, the history-making teams, sports editors and “foot-ball” aficionados of that time, if they were alive today, would be startled that over a century later we have imposed the judgments of a present few to obliterate the truth that they all knew and to nullify the honors that they bestowed on teams they all recognized as the national champions in their own time, and instead to transfer those honors, not to any more deserving recipients that might have been blindly overlooked, but rather, to frequent opponents that the champions of their own time faced on the field of play and, at least in those two seasons, had been determined to be the better of!

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Why also use CFRA from 1919 – 1935?

Not to question it, but rather to understand, what is the philosophy for the inclusion, in CFDW’s criteria for recognition, of the CFRA’s selections for 1919 – 1935 only? The CFRA criterion has the effect of bestowing recognition on four teams that otherwise would not be recognized based on HAF and NCF selections. They are 1919 Illinois, 1921 California, 1927 Yale and 1930 Alabama (and if the criterion is relaxed slightly, 1916 Army also, as noted above). Does the philosophy for inclusion render the effect acceptable? Does the effect justify the philosophy for inclusion? Is there anything in particular about those four (or five) teams (that gained recognition by virtue of the CFRA’s selections) that has resulted in the correction of noticeable inequities had they not been included?

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

1935 TCU, SMU and Princeton

In the CFDW list of recognized national champions, why are TCU, SMU and Princeton included for 1935? The only major selectors of these teams in 1935 appear to be for TCU, Williamson; for Princeton, Dunkel; and for SMU, Dickinson, Houlgate and Sagarin (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/yearly_results.php?year=1935), which does not reach the CDFW criteria for recognition. The only selector of LSU in 1935 also was Williamson, yet LSU is not in the CDFW recognized list.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Did Yale ever limit basis of title claims to HAF only?

Why, in the list of “What Teams Claim” at http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/national_champs_assessment.php, is Yale shown as claiming only those 11 years in which HAF selected Yale, and none of the other 16 years for which Yale in fact claims titles, according to its own athletics website? Was it ever in fact true that Yale at one time claimed that only those 11 teams receiving Helms recognition were national champions? Note that by adding in the years in which NCF and CFRA also selected Yale does one arrive at the 18 titles that CFDW recognizes for Yale.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

1934 Pittsburgh

Why does Pittsburgh claim a national championship in 1934 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/national_champs_assessment.php)? CFDW shows there to be no selectors at all who chose Pitt that year (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/yearly_results.php?year=1934). Pitt does claim that Parke Davis selected Pitt in 1934. However, Parke Davis died before the 1934 season, and the NCAA record book has no Parke Davis selections after his death.

Jeff in CA (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Legitimacy of university claims have no bearing on their inclusion because it is only a reflection of the school's self evaluation and not open to editor interpretation based on principals of WP:OR (for instance BC 1940). In this case, Pitt originally stated it championship claims on a 1970 study published by Sports Illustrated. Pitt's claims predate CFDW or the NCAA's Records Book and have been consistently maintain even while eschewing 1910, which has since become a more universally recognized championship year according to other third party evaluators of championship selections, but while adding the "consensus" title of 1976 to its list. While Parke Davis passed away prior to this date, his byline was apparently continued to be used for several years to publish championship selections in the Spaulding Annual football guides, which SI apparently counted. Part of that study was published in SI's magazine and can be viewed [1].

Whoever makes a claim needs to show his audience the research. If it exists, that should be easy to do. If it is apparent that Parke Davis’ name was used posthumously to lend an air of authenticity to someone’s selection of Pittsburgh in 1934 as national champion, show us where that was published. If it is apparent that SI relied on the mention of a 1934 selection of Pittsburgh in the Spalding Official Football Guide, one should be able to confirm that by looking it up. If this knowledge exists, please show us.

It is my belief that there is no 1970 study published by Sports Illustrated. Or rather, that the 1967 article in SI is the study that has been cited as being from 1970. If there is a different study from 1970, why can’t it or an accurate citation to it be found on the web? If it can be found and the 1934 statement is borne out, then everyone will be happy.

There has to some basis for a claim. I can’t find one for 1934. Parke Davis died before the start of the 1934 season. And CFDW lists 41 selectors who chose Alabama and Minnesota (who defeated Pittsburgh at Pittsburgh that season) for 1934, including numerous "major" selectors (i.e., those that were "national in scope") and zero selectors that chose Pittsburgh.

The 1967 SI article contained a "complete list of college football's mythical champions as selected by every recognized authority since 1924." Anyone could have done that by looking up the information in the previous 43 years of almanacs and football guides. Good on SI for doing it. It seems, however, that they made an error in their list at 1934.

Jeff in CA (talk) 01:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Other "recognized" teams not meeting CFDW stated recognition criteria

In the CFDW list of recognized national champions, why are the following teams included for the years shown? None of them meets the stated criteria for inclusion in the CFDW list, as none was selected by the requisite major selectors used in the CDFW criteria. (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/national_champs_assessment.php)