Talk:Clan MacIntyre

I have simply thrown up some of the info about the clan that I have, and intend to pretty it up and add to it sometime in the next couple of days when I have time. Feel free to pretty it up and add info and pics (specifically I think a pic of the tartan and crest would be best. Possibly a link to a track of the pipes would be good as well). I would also like to tie it into the Scottish Clans page and other relevant ones.Etemenanki 14:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Families

I believe that some note should be made of the member families of thts clan--Whytecypress 00:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

While we do "PWN" all others, I think we can leave it out of the article since it is common knowledge.--Etemenanki 03:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Errors regarding the Clan during the '45?

I just wanted to note that I think there is a factual error in this page. Where there is discussion of the '45 and the MacIntyres role in it, it says that the Chief would have fought for the Stewarts except for the influence of his campbell wife and neighbors (who probably would have killed him and most of his clan had they done so). It then goes on to say that many of his clansmen slipped away and fought for the hanoverians at Falkirk under the great bard Duncan Ban MacIntyre. While Duncan certainly fought for/with the english, I've never hard this reference to clansman slipping away and fighting under him. He was a Gaelic bard, not a clan chief, I suspect no one fought under him, but perhaps with him. But most importantly, I think this actually should be two seperate ideas, one, that yes, Duncan did fight with the english side, and two, that while the MacIntyre chief couldn't fight for Charles Edward Stuart, and refrained, probably despite his inclination, in order to save his clan, he allowed/tolerated (with a wink) many of his clansmen to slip away and fight for the Stuarts, particularly at Culloden, many of them in the Stewart of Appin regiment. I think this is a mistake because the language he uses, that they slipped away, is almost word for word the language used by many clan histories in reference to the Cheif allowing clansmen to slip away and fight for the Stuarts. Plus it makes more sense for the clansmen to have to slip away to fight for the Stuarts, because the Chief was trying to maintain the pretense of not supporting the Stuarts. I have some published histories documenting this that I will try to dig up and put up references, but for now my hope is that the original author might see this and check to see if indeed he made a mistake. Thanks, Micum MacIntyre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.149.156 (talk) 20:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

WARNING excessive or improper use of copyrighted material

see text at macintyreclan.org. seems to be a violation of copyrighted (Copyright © 1999 - 2005 Clan MacIntyre Association. All rights reserved) material. URGENT ATTENTION required. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Simple answer for that kind of stuff - just terminate with extreme prejudice. :-) If there's anything worth rescuing, you can find it in this diff - I leave that as an exercise for the reader. :-) Le Deluge (talk) 09:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

just added text from public domain. Should act as a good stub for the article. Problem solved. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 12:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

MacIntyre article revision

Following replacement by Czar Brodie of copyrighted material with text from the public domain, I have replaced the somewhat dated public domain article with a new article that is original copy and is supported by Reliable sources. Czar Brodie and I have discussed this replacement of his material with my new material. I have not removed the preexisting graphic boxes. I will clean up the two notes that need to be straightened out shortly.

I have often used multiple citations. As stated, there is little documented with respect to the early clan history. Consequently, the sources, while in general agreement, vary as to details. For an encyclopedia, it is inappropriate to give every variation of every story, so I have had to select certain details for inclusion at the expense of others. The multiple sources allow a reader to locate all versions of any particular account.

As always, further work remains to be done on the article.Tomaterols (talk) 14:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Well done! The article looks great.--Celtus (talk) 06:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Good stuff. Two quick comments - the intro needs to summarise the article, for something this length you're probably looking at 3 paragraphs or so, see WP:LEAD - but that's not something many clan articles are good on. :-) The other thing is more minor, but in modern geography it seems to be pretty much always Glen Noe when referring to the place in Scotland, Glenoe is in Northern Ireland. It may be Glenoe in titles and in old references, but I'd suggest you replace it with Glen Noe where appropriate - I'll leave it to you given the potential for mis-substitution.Le Deluge (talk) 23:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization of MacIntyre

There is no agreement among references as to capitalization of the principal name in “Mac” names. Some references (all listed in the Clan MacIntyre article, in full) render the name “Macintyre” on the evident theory that the principal name “carpenter” is not a proper noun like “MacDonald.” See Adam, The Clans, Septs and Regiments; Macdonald, Clan MacIntyre; Gordon, Highland Days; Moncreiffe, The Highland Clans p. 13. In other references, however, the principal name is capitalized as “MacIntyre.” See Douglas, The Story of the Clans; Grant, Scottish Clans and Tartans; McIan, The Clans of the Scottish Highlands. Oddly, one of the most recent compilations of clan histories, Way of Plean’s Collins Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia, capitalizes only the first letter of all “Mac” names resulting in the unusual renderings “Macdonald,” “Macalister,” etc. Given the absence of any consistency among the sources, and the fact that the chiefs’ surname has the principal name capitalized, I believe “MacIntyre” is the most logical option.--Tomaterols (talk) 19:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

The good references for the capital leters are: SCOSC and burkes. Both give "MacIntyre". so no problems here. I think we use these references for the capitals, eg: Macdonald of Macdonald, or Macalister are as these references, the same goes for MacDonald of Keppoch, MacLea etc. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 20:25, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

MacIntyres chiefs' coat of arms image anticipated

A friend who is a heraldic artist in the U.K. has agreed to execute a copy of the chief's arms which he will relinquish his copyright to. Inasmuch as the arms were only granted in 1991, there are no existing images that are not in copyright. I have left the area next to the table of contents empty for this graphic, which should be ready sometime in June.--Tomaterols (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Well it's six months late due to some problems on my part, but the Chief's coat of arms illustration, by heraldic artist Roland Symons, has now been uploaded into the article.--Tomaterols (talk) 03:29, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Arson of Chief's home

Regarding the story of the burning (or not) of the chief's home in the "History" section, most sources say the fire was caused by one of the Royalist troops, not the chief. Unfortunately, all the parallel accounts I can find are in self-published or unpublished sources. If anybody can find the version of the story that says troops began to fire the house in a Reliable source it would be very helpful to add it and then cite to Gordon as a secondary source.--Tomaterols (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Found a source and am adding it.--Tomaterols (talk) 15:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of Glen Noe

Although many works spell the location in the Scottish Highlands of the home of the clan chiefs as "Glen Noe," in the matriculation of arms to the clan chief by the Lord Lyon dated September 20, 1991, the chief's territorial designation is "MacIntyre of Glenoe." The matriculation itself is not published, but this correct spelling appears in one of the latest works on Scottish Clans, Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia, George Way of Plean and Romilly Squire, Glasgow: HarperCollins Publishers, 1994, pages 222-223.--Tomaterols (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

First paragraph: trade-name, clan

I don't understand the point of the first paragraph. It makes it seem like there are etymologists out there who don't consider the name to be a trade-name or occupational-name (huh?). Also, I don't understand what this has to do with the chief's coat of arms in 1990. How can the 'trade-name MacIntyre' be "at odds with this position"? The website for Burke's Peerage and Gentry lists the chief as "Chief of the Name and Arms of MacIntyre" [1]; if that link is to be trusted, wouldn't it seem like the Lord Lyon considers him as chief of all of all 'MacIntyres', not just a certain family, like the MacIntyres of Glenoe?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I’m not entirely sure where the confusion lies. If the name MacIntyre is a generic trade name, then it implies no common ancestry. Anyone who is the son of any carpenter may have adopted the name. If, on the other hand, the name indicates descent from a specific, notable carpenter, then all MacIntyres presumably share a common ancestor.

Sir Iain Moncreiffe’s specific statement, referenced in footnote 2 in the article, is: “In all districts, there were, of course, carpenters, wrights, blacksmiths, armourers and weavers; hence surnames like Macintyre and Gow.” The statement implicitly denies a common ancestry for MacIntyres and hence negates the very existence of a Clan MacIntyre. Moncreiffe was himself a member of the Lyon Court and is considered by many people to be a major authority on the subject of Scottish clans. I can’t see how the article can entirely ignore his contrary position, much as I might like it to. On the other hand the Lord Lyon’s view in 1990, one can only conclude, was that, like Clan MacPherson (“son of the parson”), MacIntyre is not simply a trade name but is the name of a recognized and distinct clan of related individuals.

No doubt it is possible that there are some carpenters’ sons with the surname MacIntyre who are not genetically members of Clan MacIntyre, just as there may be parsons’ sons who are named MacPherson but are not members of that clan. Absent published studies on this point, there is nothing concrete to include in the Clan MacIntyre article.

As to the nomenclature of the chief’s name and title, an individual becomes clan chief by grant of the Lord Lyon of the undifferenced coat of arms of the name. In Scotland, all arms include some territorial designation. The Chief’s matriculation of arms, a copy of which I am looking at but which is not published, declares: “Whereas James Wallace MacIntyre of Glenoe, Chief of the Name and Arms of MacIntyre, etc.” Similarly, Collins Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia (listed in the article's references), in it's MacIntyre entry notes that in 1991: "James Wallace Macintyre of Glenoe, ninth of the recorded chiefs, matriculated the correct undifferenced arms." In clan circles, one properly addresses the Chief simply as "Glenoe." "MacIntyre" or even "Mr. MacIntyre" would, at least technically, be considered insulting. Confusing, perhaps, but that’s the way it’s done--and not as bad as several clans whose chiefs have, in addition to territorial designations, Gaelic designations which they employ.

One of the major problems with this article is that there is a great deal of unpublished material regarding Clan MacIntyre that cannot be cited. When Moncreiffe characterized MacIntyre as a trade name, he had to have been aware that in the 1950s the Lord Lyon had approached the then-chief of Clan MacIntyre and invited him to register his arms and thereby obtain formal recognition of his status as chief of a clan. According to his Wikipedia article Moncreiffe joined the Court in 1952. But none of this appears in published sources.--Tomaterols (talk) 03:48, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

ADDENDUM: I should have also noted that the entry in Burkes Peerage is: "MacIntyre of Glenoe, Chief of MacIntyre; Donald Russell MacIntyre of Glenoe, Chief of the Name and Arms of MacIntyre." It is incorrect to omit "of Glenoe" from the chief's name.--Tomaterols (talk) 04:41, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

How can a surname having a chief of the name be at odds with the fact that the name is used by various families? That doesn't seem to make any sense. There are various families of Morrisons, and various origins for the surname, yet Lyon considered that Morrison of Ruchdi should be considered 'chief of the name'. Lyon recognised a branch chief as well, and noted that further branch chiefs could be recognised for other Morrison families not connected, but that Morrison of Ruchdi would still be 'chief of the name'[2]. There are various different Henderson families with different origins, but there is a 'chief of the name', as well. It almost seems like common sense alone should tell you that not all MacIntyres (sons of the carpenter) are related. Look at this DNA project [3]. One lineage claims descent from the supposed progenitor of the clan; another unrelated male-line lineage claims descent from the first MacIntyre of Glenoe. The majority of all the MacIntyres in the project aren't even related to these two lineages. If the claim by one member in "Lineage ll" is to be believed, then you could almost say that it's likely most MacIntyres aren't related to the MacIntyres of Glenoe. I noticed the F. Adam reference (which is on GoogleBooks) has nothing to do with the 'at odds' statement. So I think we should take out the 'at odds' stuff and just give the etymology of the name, then go into the traditional origins of the MacIntyres of Glenoe. Something like that. I think we should be clear when we are talking about the MacIntyres of Glenoe and the surname in general, it's more honest that way.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems clear that Moncreiffe did not regard MacIntyre as a clan at all. He characterizes it as a trade name and does not include it in The Highland Clans. Moreover, he omitted any entry for MacIntyre on a Scottish clan map he edited some years ago. Eyre-Todd, who is also cited in footnote 2, is even more explicit and can be accessed on line, although I do not know to what extent he is considered an authority. I think it would be an error to omit these contrary positions which were originally brought to my attention on my talk page on April 22, 2009, by Czar Brodie (talk) who recommended they be addressed. Obviously, I concurred with his recommendation. In any event, if you have additional Reliable source material you are always free to include it. I do not believe the DNA project you reference constitutes a reliable source under Wiki criteria.--Tomaterols (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

No Tomaterols, you are only assuming things. Just because he omitted a clan doesn't mean anything but that. The Hendersons are omitted and the Nicolsons are omitted. Yet in the 1980s Lyon recognised a 'chief of the name' of Nicolson, and later recognised a chief of the Skye Nicolsons who were long known to be a clan of their own. As well, Moncreiffe's map has numerous names which don't even have recognised chiefs: like the Skye names MacAskill and MacCrimmon. So what? Moncreiffe and Eyre-Todd were just stating the obvious, as unromantic as it may seem to some; the name is used by unrelated people. Yet this doesn't negate the fact that a 'chief of the name' can be recognised by Lyon. I'm not suggesting we remove the 'trade name' part, or the fact there is now a 'chief of the name', only that we remove the 'at odds' assumption in-between.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

At the risk of stating the obvious, no one owns a Wikipedia article. If you think you can improve it the banner at the top of this page invites you to do so. I would just hate to see it lose the GA rating it recently attained by subsequent changes. If you are uncertain about the specific wording and want to propose it here first, that's fine. Without concrete wording, we seem to be talking in circles. As a practical matter, all MacIntyres have been considered members of Clan MacIntyre for all purpose that I am aware of.--Tomaterols (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC).

Further thought: If what you are saying is that MacIntyre is both a clan name and a trade name, I think you may run afoul of the original research prohibition unless you can cite a reliable source that supports the position that it is both. Otherwise I think it is a impermissible synthesis.--Tomaterols (talk) 22:02, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand your further thought comment. Can't families bear names which originated as trade names? Can't men and women be recognised by Lyon as chiefs of these names? Can't unrelated people share the same surname? BTW, I didn't add anything to the article, only removed the weasely bit, like 'merely a trade name'. Look at this [4] another surname which originates from an occupation, and which also has unrelated families who use it. That doesn't stop it from being listed on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs' website.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

A Descendent of the MacIntyre Chief's of Glen Noe

I have just read the article on Clan MacIntyre and found it very interesting. It seems to be a very well researched and accurate article. My husband is a great-great-grandson of James MacIntyre, (born circa 1727) designated third Chief of Clan MacIntyre. His daughter Jean married Reverend Duncan MacIntyre, Minister of Kilmallie Parish, Lochaber. Their son Duncan Alexander MacIntyre immigrated to Australia on board the "Hooghley" in 1836, and worked as a shepherd for the Campbell family of Duntroon (present day Canberra). The Reverend Duncan MacIntyre was a son of John MacIntyre of Camusnaherie, which was a cadet branch of the main Glen Noe line. The Camusnaherie MacIntyres are buried on Eilean Munde (the Isle of Mung) in Loch Leven and the Glen Noe MacIntyres are buried at Ardchatten Priory near Glen Noe. I have a copy of "Clan MacIntyre, A Journey to the Past" by the late L.D. MacIntyre (published 1977) and "MacIntyre of Glenoe and Camus-na-h. Erie" by Duncan MacIntyre (published 1901) - The author Duncan MacIntyre was a nephew of our "Hooghley" Duncan. These two excellent books should be allowed to be cited as sources. From a Clansman's Spouse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.168.62.148 (talk) 11:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC)