Talk:Cesare Orsenigo

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A fact from Cesare Orsenigo appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 9 July 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Pope Pius XII's retention of Cesare Orsenigo (pictured left, with Hitler and von Ribbentrop) as Apostolic Nuncio to Germany is a "chief point of criticism" of his response to the Holocaust?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/July.

Wikipedia

Phayer's claim about Orsegenio's anti-Semitism not in source he cites[edit]

This article (which relies heavily on authors in English who are critical of the Vatican) cites Phayer quoting Orsengio, from Vol. 1 of the ADSS, from page 141, as saying: " "The 4 million Jews will certainly do their utmost to excite and to help the others fight against Germany, but they [...] will not fight because the Jew is selfish and does not like fighting."

The complete ADSS is now on-line. See http://www.vatican.va/archive/actes/documents/Volume-1.pdf If you go to PDF page 169, which will bring you to page 141 of the volume, you will see that Orsenigo's memo (in Italian) makes no such statement about the Jews.

Maybe it's document 141, rather than the page? Document 141 is a memo by Tardini to Orsenigo.

Is the citation in the entry the one in Phayer's book, or is Phayer simply wrong?Bronxpolwatcher (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Phayer confuses Ribbentrop's words with Orsegenio's[edit]

Phayer does cite Vol 1 of the ADSS, but not the original. He cites the only volume that was translated into English. I checked page 141. The memo, a dispatch to Cardinal Maglione, records a conversation between Orsegenio with German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. It was Ribbentrop who made that statement, not Orsenigo. The statement appears in section 3. but there's a single quotation mark ['] before section section (all three sections have it) showing Orsenigo was quoting Ribbentrop. So Phayer wrongly assumed Orsenigo made the anti-Semitic statement.

Bronxpolwatcher (talk) 00:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see how you can possibly claim to verify this based on the online version of the ADSS on the Vatican website, which is blurry beyond recognition. Can you please confirm whether you found the text on the page cited by Phayer? Savidan 02:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blurry beyond recognition? I can access the volumes fine. You have to download each individual volume, which takes time. Maybe it's your computer? I am speaking of Vol. 1, the only volume which was translated completely into English with the title "Records and Documents of the Holy See relating to the Second World War (which is available at the NYPL). This one is not online. But I physically checked it, and Phayer did confuse Ribbentrop's with Orsegenio's. The memo in question is on page 141 of the English volume. Bronxpolwatcher (talk) 20:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Phayer Wrong Again on Orsenigo and the Jews[edit]

If you do check the online volumes (6, 8, 9, and 10), Orsenigio did intervene on behalf of Jews, so Phayer's claim that he refused to do so is wrong. Bronxpolwatcher (talk) 20:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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