Talk:Catholic resistance to Nazi Germany

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Big topic[edit]

From the beginning this is a big topic, but many national situations are not yet discussed, while what exists could benefit from a good editor trim. Happy editing! Ozhistory (talk) 09:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly what I have read so far reads like a sick joke - a pov fork in order to whitewash away the silence and cooperation that did take place. I don't take anything away from the heroic figures who did indeed take a stand and gave their life and no way would I try to hide that but to put together an article such as this is simply bating others to come in with equally loaded material that tells a far different story. How about a more nuanced treatment? Yt95 (talk) 12:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have attempted to integrate your new material into the main. It is best to place extended quotes from sources in main, and stick to precis in intro, but we should always avoid points being made only in the intro. It is a short-cut to skewing a reader's first impression, but it's not great editing in the long run. In view of your edits, I have also sought to better define the topic, as your re-write of the opening sentence seemed to be taking the topic as if it were only concerned with "rescue" of Jews. Remember Phayer's book (which is already extensively referred to in the article) is chiefly concerned with the Church and the Holocaust, so be careful to either adapt your language accordingly for the topic of this article, or simply add Phayer to existing sections dealing with Holocaust. I will revert with a good source on Edith Stein's activities as a "dissident". She certainly fits the bill there, though she was one of (I think) 92 Catholic-Jews arrested in retaliation for the protest of the Dutch Bishops against deportations of Jews from Holland, so you are not wrong to speak of her being killed for being "Jewish" (according to the Nazi racial conception of the term), but she was already on the radar as an anti-Nazi too. Enough for now. Look forward to rounding off the article with you, in so far as I can help. regards Ozhistory (talk) 13:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's hopelessly biased. A reader who knows little about the subject will assume that the Church was steadfast opponent of the Nazi's and its resistance was a significant force in Nazi Germany. No scholar that I know even tries to argue that. After the signing of the Concordat official resistance to Nazi Germany by the Church, other than with the claimed infractions of their signed agreements, was not only notable by its absence but was considered traitorous by the hierarchy. This has to be made perfectly clear right at the beginning in the lead along with some relative estimate of those involved in resistance as compared with those who either didn't resist/actively supported the Nazi's (the former is vastly outnumbered by the latter), otherwise you have created a point of view fork. Years ago you would have been banned from Wikipedia but because its more like a ghost town now your getting away with a blitzkrieg of pseudo-scholarship across multiple articles because there is nobody around now to resist the fanatics, as once there was, that congregate around Church articles. Yt95 (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed about the lede being far too long as well as short on overview, but even before YT95' edits] it was almost as unreadable as the lede of Catholic Church and Nazi Germany. Doesn't s/he have a point about WP:CFORK? The implied scope of this article combined with what seems like resistance to an evaluation of the resistance's effectiveness/significance almost cries out for a companion article titled Catholic collaboration with Nazi Germany. Sparafucil (talk) 04:04, 6 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
From Background section: "With ongoing hostility to the Nazis from the Catholic press and the Catholic Center Party, few German Catholics voted Nazi in the elections preceding the Nazi takeover." ... "When the Nazis came to power in Coalition with the Conservatives in early 1933, German Catholics were apprehensive.[23] Parliamentary opposition by parties like the Catholic aligned Centre Party and Bavarian People's Party was rendered impossible by the abolition of all non Nazi parties" Cf. Adolf Hitler#Rise to power: "The position of the Centre Party, the third largest party in the Reichstag, was decisive". "Years ago you would have been banned from Wikipedia but because its more like a ghost town now your getting away with a blitzkrieg of pseudo-scholarship" is correct. POV and Merge tag added. zzz (talk) 06:06, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Catholic resistance was a fact of the Nazi period, and not even the boldest revisionist historian claims there was no such thing, so the idea that an article focused on the nature of that resistance should be somehow expunged from Wikipedia is not rational. The article already contains multiple qualifications on the extent, limits and variability of Catholic resistance (and, in any case, citing one line from a wikipedia article about the not-officially-Catholic Centre Party's decision on one day under duress to join OTHER parties in voting for the Enabling Law is not persuasive at all as an indicator of a "biased article", when the article covers around two decades of history). Regardless, I have added detail to the section on the Enabling Law vote. Ozhistory (talk) 06:09, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarify[edit]

How was Bernard Lichtenberg able to offer "a prayer for the Jews being deported to the East", on October 23 1942 if he was "arrested in 1941"? Mannanan51 (talk) 19:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Merger proposal - not a good idea[edit]

This topic is quite distinct and self contained, and the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany article is already long. Ozhistory (talk) 13:57, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive length[edit]

I have added the "Very long" template on top of this article. It reaches the incredible total length of over 31'000 words, which cut and pasted in a standard word file means 72 pages (without any pictures). Probably a world record!
Pensées de Pascal (talk) 17:06, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bishop August Von Galen[edit]

I was reading through the article and discovered a discrepancy. It states that in the 1941 denunciation sermons of Bishop August Von Galen, he states that it was never the intention of the church to "overthrow" the regime.

Having read the actual sermons, not only does he never express such a thought, he never even uses the word "overthrow," or anything close to it in such a manner. In the current reading, it appears to be a quote from Von Galen, yet neither that word nor the idea are in his sermons. He never talks about the intentions of the church towards the regime at all in any of the 1941 sermons.

96.43.64.247 (talk) 15:42, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This may be a question of interpretation, but the thought comes from the Graml history of the German resistance, as listed if you want to review - however, I don't see a need to have inverted commas on the word, so these have been removed. Ozhistory (talk) 23:27, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Article and section organization[edit]

The article could benefit by a rethink of its top-level structure, as reflected in the current sequence of sections. After simplifying some of the section headers per MOS:NOBACKREF, this is a bit easier to see, now. We now have:

  1. Background
  2. Within Germany
  3. To the Holocaust
  4. From the Vatican
  5. Outside Germany

After the Background section, we have a mix of geographical organization (in or out of Germany), what the resistance was directed toward (the Holocaust), or what the institutional source of it was (the Vatican). I'm new to this article, so I don't want to take the lead on this, but I could take part and offer ideas, as the discussion develops. One thing that springs to mind, is to the extent that the geographical organization is kept, it should be together; so at least "Within Germany" and "Outside Germany" should be adjacent sections. Mathglot (talk) 20:32, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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