Talk:Carnival in the Netherlands

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Netherlands

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Wrong spelling[edit]

The festivity is called "carnaval" throughout the article, but the English name is "carnival". – Editør (talk) 18:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

... LOL, the word is even spelled Carnival in the title of the article. And the word is also used many times in the article in a generic sense, ie not specifically Dutch. Furthermore there are a lot of other errors in English, for example, words such as Lent, Christian etc which should be capitalised. Are you a native English speaker? ----Ehrenkater (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of article[edit]

This article goes considerably beyond the Netherlands but covers carnival in general and Europe in particular. Maybe rename the article? ----Ehrenkater (talk) 16:42, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Prechristian carnival. Sources.[edit]

The article, at first glance, seems well sourced. I have some doubts, however on the quality of the sources given.

A central figure was possibly the fertility goddess Nerthus. Also there are some indications that the effigy of the god Nerthus^[1] or Freyr was placed on a ship with wheels and accompanied by a procession of people in animal disguise and men in women's clothes.^[2]

For instance, one "source" given for a connection to Nerthus or Freyr are a few quotes by Tacitus, which do not mention carnival, Nerthus or Freyr, which are not only primary sources, but bear no relation to the subject. The first quote (Germania IX) are a few general observations on the main gods (Mercury, according to Tacitus, and the Suebi worship Isis), the second (Germania XL) pertains to a variety of tribes (Reudigni, Aviones, Anglii, Varini, etc). The procession mentioned takes place "in insula oceani", on an "Island in the Ocean" and has no relation whatsoever the claim made.

The second source is F.E.N. Vlaanderen (Federatie Europese Narren, Federation of European Fools/Jesters, which doubtlessly offers many useful services to it's members, but is hardly a reliable source on the subject of prechristian religions. The same source is used in the lede to claim an origin as a pagan spring festival, but, again, this is hardly a RS in relation to the claim.

Other sources for this sections include:

http://members.ziggo.nl/leowethly/Carnaval/geschiedenis.htm (a personal website) which backs up the claim "Aboard the ship would the marriage of a man and woman be consummated as a fertility ritual"
http://www.boemelburcht.info/?page_id=238 (the website of the Carnavalsvereniging of Zevenaar) backs up the claim "A predominant deity was during this jubilee driven around in a noisy procession on a ship on wheels. During this feast the people celebrated the rebirth of the suns the days grew longer again."
http://www.isgeschiedenis.nl/nieuws/oorsprong_van_het_carnaval/ backs up Traditionally the feast also applied to sexual desires, which were supposed to be suppressed during the following fasting. Interestingly, the article opens with the statement "The origins of the celebrations are not quite clear" and claims carnival originates in medieval Italy and was subsequently imported.
http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/meertensnet/wdb.php?sel=79966 An article by the venerable Meertens Instituut and hosted by the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, no less, serves to support many claims, but in this example: "The winter would be driven out, to make sure that fertility could return in spring.". In fact, the article mentions no such thing and flatly rejects any ancient origins of carnival in the Netherlands and stresses carnival in its current form is rather recent.

Moreover, the article as it is was largely written by a single non-native english speaker and, frankly, it shows. There's some serious cleaning up to be done. Kleuske (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Tacitus, Germania 9.6: Ceterum nec cohibere parietibus deos neque in ullam humani oris speciem adsimulare ex magnitudine caelestium arbitrantur - "The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance." Germania 40: mox vehiculum et vestis et, si credere velis, numen ipsum secreto lacu abluitur - "Afterwards the car, the vestments, and, if you like to believe it, the divinity herself, are purified in a secret lake." Trans. Alfred John Church and William Jackson Brodribb, The Agricola and Germany of Tacitus, London: Macmillan, 1868, OCLC 776555615
^ Cite error: The named reference fenvlaanderen.be was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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[1] Tacitus, Germania 9.6: Ceterum nec cohibere parietibus deos neque in ullam humani oris speciem adsimulare ex magnitudine caelestium arbitrantur - "The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance." Germania 40: mox vehiculum et vestis et, si credere velis, numen ipsum secreto lacu abluitur - "Afterwards the car, the vestments, and, if you like to believe it, the divinity herself, are purified in a secret lake." Trans. Alfred John Church and William Jackson Brodribb, The Agricola and Germany of Tacitus, London: Macmillan, 1868, OCLC 776555615

[fenvlaanderen.be-2] Cite error: The named reference fenvlaanderen.be was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[1]

[2]