Talk:British and Irish Communist Organisation

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Errors[edit]

As someone who was a British member of B&ICO, I felt the need to correct the more obvious errors in the piece. I've a feeling there was a Jim Lane who was an ICO member, though it may not be the same fellow. He is definitely not the same person as Jack Lane, any more than Colin Powell is Enoch Powell.

Some of the other comments are no better informed, though I accept them as honest errors from someone who was trying to fill in the gaps.

What I've left unchanges isn't necessarily accurate, just I'm not going to undertake to write the definitive history. More important is the massive neglect of Workers' Control, the big missed opportunity of the 1970s.

I have however added and linked to the Dublin Housing Action Committee, which every Irish leftists alive at the time likes to have on their CV. As is documented in the links for that page, the Secretary and leading spirit was Dennis Dennehy, a founder-member who later left. His own history is very interesting, but I am not qualified to write it.

--GwydionM 17:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism[edit]

Given their rather abrupt changes of view, I think a criticism section would be appropriate - where would be the best source to start with for this? Autarch 19:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You might consider the possibility that abrupt changes of view are related to abrupt changes in the world. Notably the Soviet collapse of 1989-91. Also the collapse of the first power-sharing in 1974 and the apparent success of the latest round. --GwydionM 17:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I've seen of their writings about that period claims that their change of view was due to a collapse of the nationalist position in the Republic, rather than the collapse of the Soviet Union. (In fact, there's at least one webpage - a reprint of a 1975 publication that denies that they are a Marxist organisation.here) Some of the changes are across the Nationalist/Unionist divide, suggesting a local reason. Autarch 19:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Communist Comment 040770r.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot 21:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq[edit]

The recent update is mostly accurate. But it's not true to say that BICO supported the take-over of Kuwait by Iraq. The objection was that he was targetted despite having discussed the possibility of action with the US ambassador. --GwydionM (talk) 17:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced text[edit]

Text which was unreferenced since July 08, was replaced again along with the tags. I've removed them again as it's unreferenced.--Domer48'fenian' 10:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Domer why do you rush in censoriously removing paragraphs you can't have time to even have read let alone considered? If things are wrong say so but let others who know the subject remove or amend challengeable items. Don't vandalise. 81.151.64.123 (talk) 14:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit summary indicates to me that we have had dealings in the past “More thoughtless reversion by Domer” ? Could you possibly tell me what those reversions were, as it may help to understand how an editor who has only started editing on the 17th could form such an opinion? Unless of course your not a new editor, and just forgot to log in? --Domer48'fenian' 20:43, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have also. The disruption from this IP editor should stop. O Fenian (talk) 16:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brendan Clifford[edit]

The page here gives his year of birth as 1935, but this page says 1926 - I'm assuming it's the same Brendan Clifford given that his wife was born in Jerusalem, her mother seems to have a Jewish family background and her father was called John Abu Khalil - as far as I know the Aubane Angela Clifford was born of a Jewish mother and Palestinian father. Does anyone have any more details on Brendan Clifford, such as year of birth? Autarch (talk) 18:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just found this page, which mentions a book published by Angela Clifford about her family, which seems to confirm that above link about Brendan and Angela Clifford - though some might question whether this second link breaches WP:SELFPUB. Autarch (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found this reference from Clifford in the 1999 edition of Notes on Eire,in the chapter which dicusses WWII, which suggests the 1935 reference is more acccurate: ...even when I was growing up in the recesses of Slieve Luacra,in the ten years after the [Second World] War,in the isolation that we are told overtook Ireland because of the Neutrality". (pg. 121).

(Though,again, NoE is subject to the caveat about WP:SELFPUB that the OP pointed out).

Someone born in 1926 couldn't have been said to be "growing up" in the 1945-55 period,since they would have been in their twenties for most of that time. Is there a reference to Clifford's birth date in any set of records (the National Library of Ireland, or the Births,Marriages and Deaths bureau) that could be checked? 91.142.107.2 (talk) 16:55, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would be better to find them in a published WP:RS as looking up the public records might be WP:OR (though I'm unsure on that).Autarch (talk) 19:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick Murphy[edit]

An editor keeps adding to the article the statement "In April 2009, former B&ICO member Patrick Murphy (1937–2009) passed away", linked to an obituary (behind a paywall) in the Irish Times. I have removed this for several reasons. In the first place, Murphy is not mentioned in the article, and there is no Wikipedia article on him. So there is no indication even that he was a member of the group, let alone a significant member. If his membership had been notable, this would surely have been mentioned in the article, even if he did not merit an article himself. In any case, we do not note in Wikipedia articles the deaths of every member of a political group, let alone of former members. If we started to do this, some articles would soon become unmanageably long. Do you think we should note the death of every former member of the British Labour Party? If not, then why is this former member of BICO any different? Please justify the inclusion of this information before re-adding it. And by the way, you should note that WP:Euphemism states that we should euphemisms such as "passed away": "The word died is neutral and accurate". RolandR (talk) 18:46, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Be assured, you are flatly wrong. Life it to short to waste more of it correcting you.--GwydionM (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well that puts me in my place, doesn't it? Utterly convincing. RolandR (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JS piece (now deleted)[edit]

What's said at [1] is indeed rubbish. Brendan Clifford went from Cork to London and has never spent much time in Dublin, among other errors.

It is the work of a fool, someone who congratulates themselves on being witty rather than learning anything. Among other matters, Ernest Bevin helped save the early Soviet Union by preventing BRitish arm shipments to the WHite forces. He built the Transport and General, Britain's biggest union. And established a functional social welfare system in BRitain in World War Two. Naturally he is hated by "revolutionaries" who achieve nothing beyond some bad jokes.

I record this in case anyone feels like restoring the link, which might sound learned to those ignorant of the topic. (And don't bother writing to the author of it - he has recently been eaten by a crocodile. The poor creature was reported as being severely ill afterwards.) --GwydionM (talk) 19:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't shown why you regard the "As Soon As This Pub Closes" piece on the B&ICO is factually inaccurate though. You haven't given references (to newspapers, mags, etc from the time) that would show why you claim the information in the piece is false. Instead you simply call the author numerous insults (A "fool", and his piece "rubbish"), and regard his mildly disparaging comments on Ernest Bevin and Brendan Clifford as tantamount to blasphemy. Not helpful for those looking into the B&ICO/EBS' history and influence. 86.42.168.162 (talk) 16:00, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did they mean any of it?[edit]

I honestly suspect that this entire organization was an elaborate joke being played on the Irish and British Left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.252.95 (talk) 06:05, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What do you find funny? Explaining that the Ulster Protestants were a separate nation who were not going to collapse? Supposing that Trotskyism would come to nothing? Having a low opinion of the now-vanished world of pro-Moscow Communism? Taking on the Catholic Church when it was still strong? Saying that the trade union militancy of the 1970s would be futile unless it created new political structures? --GwydionM (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Partly it's the support of British colonial occupation in the North, but I can understand that as some kind of principled if misguided position. But the things like endorsing the Tories, or supporting the Khmer rouge, or martial law in Poland, or Zionism, supporting the Monarchy, opposing the miner's strike, ect. just seem like they were deliberately positioning themselves against whatever the rest of the Left happened to support. And the fact that they later switched to the complete opposite position on the Irish Question, among other things, seems to suggest that they may not have been seriously committed to well thought out positions. 131.104.252.204 (talk) 20:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Separate Entries?[edit]

This entry seems very long. Maybe it would be helpful to have an entry covering the B&ICO up to its disappearance in the late 1980s and have entries for its successor organisations, "The Irish Political Review" magazine and the Ernest Bevin Society, in the same way the Revolutionary Communist Party (UK, 1978) and Spiked have separate entries. 176.61.94.25 (talk) 13:16, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see the article pruned to about half its present length. I don't think they were as influential as they made themselves out to be. Hohenloh + 13:57, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not influential? Who was it who persuaded the IRA that Protestant Ulster was a distinct nation that could not be overcome by a military campaign?
Sinn Fein policy is functionally Two Nations, though they do not admit it openly. --GwydionM (talk) 17:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is now an Irish Political Review article, I think most of the IPR-related information from this entry should be moved to there. 176.61.97.121 (talk) 19:47, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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