Talk:British Commonwealth Air Training Plan

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Untitled[edit]

A good start. Some matters of detail:

  • I'd have to look it up to be sure, but wasn't it the "Empire Air Training Scheme"?
  • As I recall, it had branches all over the Empire. I think the Canadian one was the biggest, the Australian one was vey large also, and I seem to remember that South Africa was significant too. Probably there were others. Tannin

Correction: Canada, Australia, Rhodesia, and New Zealand, according to the quick Google search I just did. It might be a good idea, rather than balkanise too much, to edit this up into a brioader Empire Air Training Scheme article with appropriate sub-headings. Tannin

The Canadian contribution was overwhelmingly larger than that of any other country, including Britain, and the BCATP article has been edited to include numbers confirming this fact. Cheers, Madmagic 11:20, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

It appears EATS was in Aus/NZ only. Not to belittle the effort, it appears CATS was resonsible for about four times the number of personel. I will add a mention of EATS however.

BCATP is clearly better known name, but it looks to me like EATS was the original name for the whole thing. e.g.: "31 March {1945} The British Commonwealth Air Training Plan (BCATP), also known as the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS), prior to June 1942, officially ends. By 30 September 1944, EATS/BCATP had generated a total of 168,662 aircrew in training schools located in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Southern Rhodesia. Of this total, 75,152 were pilots, 40,452 navigators, 15,148 air bombers and 37,190 belonged to other aircrew categories. Although South Africa was not part of EATS/BCATP, under a parallel agreement, Royal Air Force aircrew were trained in South African Air Force Air Schools."[1] On that basis I'll redirect the blank EATS page to the BCATP one.Grant65 (Talk) 06:37, May 24, 2004 (UTC) EATS developed into CATP - quote from Ted Dunford, who instructed for 3 years prior to going back to the UK to fly Mosquitoes: 'I did some instructing in England and I was then posted overseas to South Africa and Rhodesia as an instructor in what was then called the Empire Air Training Scheme, later to become the Commonwealth Air Training Plan.'

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Accuracy of this article[edit]

Fellow Wikipedians....

Has anyone reviewed this article for historical accuracy? I'm a Canadian and I can assure you the only countries that had anything to do with the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan were the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The other flying training operations referred to in this article, for instance Bermuda, Rhodesia, South Africa, and the United States were created by the British government/British Air Ministry/Royal Air Force independently of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Thoughts, anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveTheAirman (talk • contribs)

I think the contents of the article are historically accurate. What might be in doubt is the accuracy of the title of the article. Perhaps its contents point towards a title such as Training of aircrew for the RAF in WW2.
The first sentence in the lead section states unequivocally that the BCATP involved only the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Where other states and territories (eg USA) are mentioned later in the article it is made clear that it is referring to a parallel arrangement or a different scheme (eg Civilian Pilot Training Program), but which did supply some aircrew to the RAF. Dolphin (t) 00:04, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the title of the article should be changed. I can comment on the historical accuracy of the parts that relate to Canada, but not on the rest of the article. The British had flying training operations in many parts of the British Empire and in the United States, but the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan was a cost-sharing agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Canada was paid to train aircrew by the other three countries and furthermoe, the Canadian government had nothing to do with aircrew or groundcrew training in any other country. Here's a quote from Canadian Prime Minister King from a speech he gave on December 18, 1939: 

            "...agreement has now been reached on a cooperative air training plan, to be known as the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. The agreement was signed last night
             very shortly after midnight in my office on Parliament Hill."
                                                                              "Premier King's Speech on Air-Training Pact," Globe and Mail, December 18, 1939.

How does one change the title of a Wikipedia article? SteveTheAirman (talk) 14:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The short answer is: Use the Wikipedia:Moving a page process.
The long answer is: If re-titling a page is likely to attract the interest of other Users, or to be controversial, it will be better to use the Talk page to explain the problem with the current title, to propose a new title, and to persuade others of the attractiveness of the proposed title. If no other User responds after 3 or 4 days, feel free to go ahead and make the move. Dolphin (t) 01:28, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Dolphin51:, we need a move discussion here. This is a bit more complex than just re-titling this article. It probably needs advertising for input at WP:AIR and WP:MILHIST for maximum input as well. - Ahunt (talk) 01:33, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it's a complex issue. This morning I checked two more sources, and found conflicting texts. According to the Australian government, the agreement signed in Ottawa on December 17, 1939 was called the "Empire Air Training Scheme" in Australia. English historian John Terraine, says that the original name of the RAF's training plan was "Empire Air Training Scheme (later called the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan)." and goes on to list 333 training schools distributed as follows: UK - 153, Canada - 92, Australia - 26, South Africa - 25, Southern Rhodesia - 10, India - 9, New Zealand - 6, Middle East - 6, USA - 5, and Bahamas - 1. 

              Australian reference: https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/encyclopedia/raaf/eats
              Terraine reference: John Terraine, A Time for Courage: The Royal Air Force in the European War, 1939-1945 (New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1985), 257-258.

SteveTheAirman (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In reading the article, it seems like about 90% of the text is about the BCATP, with the balance on other similar and complementary programs. I would suggest rather than moving this article, which would leave us with no BCATP article (which would then need writing, as it is a notable topic and we should have an article on it), that it would make more sense to split off the text not actually about the BCATP into a new, higher level article on wartime allied aircrew training programs and then just tighten up this article. - Ahunt (talk) 17:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Adam

I agree with your suggestion to split off the non-BCATP text. I've read most of the official, scholarly, and popular literature on the BCATP and I volunteer to tighten up the BCATP article. The worldwide RAF/Allied training article is a great idea, because after 1941 there was a lot of cooperation between the British and Americans on air operations. For me, it would be a research project. I found a couple of interesting news reports about RAF aircrew training in Bermuda and the US quite easily, but there's a lot more digging required. Maybe a stub article with the Rhodesian and South African bits to start off with? BTW, there is another Wikipedia issue related to the BCATP and that is the articles entitled "List of British Commonwealth Air Training Plan facilities in Rhodesia" and "List of British Commonwealth Air Training Plan facilities in South Africa." SteveTheAirman (talk) 12:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One further thought... I searched for "Empire Air Training Scheme" and "British Commonwealth Air Training Plan" in the wartime Times of London, and found that the term BCATP was used exclusively to refer to the Canadian air training operation, whereas "Empire Air Training Scheme" appeared more often in articles and was used as a generic term to refer to aircrew training in Rhodesia, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand, and occasionally Canada. SteveTheAirman (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is a good way to proceed - we do need some sort of a brief overview article of all the programs and then more detailed articles on each one. I would give this a few days to consult here and see if anyone else here has any other ways to proceed and, if not, then carry on. - Ahunt (talk) 13:56, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Australian section is discombobulated[edit]

The first paragraph mentions two numbers for crews trained. 30k+ then I think 23k+. In both instances, it says they were in Australia. I suspect the first number refers to Australia (initial training) and the second number refers to advanced training (Canada) but I don't know. What I do know, is that the way it is currently worded, it seems non-sensical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.39.199.42 (talk) 01:51, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Attention Adam Hunt and other BCATP lovers - impending revision[edit]

Hi Everyone: Now that I'm semi-retired I have time to revise this article and make separate British Commonwealth Air Training Plan and Royal Air Force worldwide training program articles. I'll publish a plan for these revisions before making any changes. The basic idea is to separate discussion of the Royal Air Force's worldwide training operations (like the RAF flying schools in the United States) from the national training programs of the colonies and dominions (like Australia and New Zealand's national flying schools) from discussion of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. The BCATP, strictly speaking, was a Canadian program run in Canada as a result of an agreement between Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom. All BCATP aircrew training schools were located in Canada. Discussion of flying schools in Rhodesia, Bermuda, Australia, and other places does not belong in a discussion of the BCATP.

Speak now, or forever hold your peace!

SteveTheAirman (talk) 18:51, 07 February 2024

Agreed. I was never satisfied with this article either. Lets just make sure we have good, reliable sources to backup those changes, etc. BTW, Adam has retired from WP.-- BC  talk to me 19:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brian, I completed a survey of the BCATP article. To my surprise, I found that over 500 other articles point to it. While the required edits to the BCATP article are fairly straightforward, figuring out what to do about the 500 other articles isn't. More study is required. SteveTheAirman (talk) 17:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Steve, unless the page is moved without a redirect, you don't have to worry about the other articles that link to this one; you need to do nothing with those other 500 or so articles. If changes are made to this one, they'll stay linked.-- BC  talk to me 18:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brian, my understanding is that they will stay linked. However, an examination of 50 or so of the linked pages shows that some of them were linked in error. One example of this is the article about Ian Smith, born in Rhodesia, who received aircrew training in either Rhodesia or South Africa. This article points (or pointed, I may have changed it) to the BCATP page. The error is that Smith's aircrew training has nothing to do with the BCATP.
In addition, in some pages the expression "Commonwealth Air Training Plan" was/is used to refer to the BCATP. Not only is "Commonwealth Air Training Plan" ambiguous, it's a Wikipedia redirect page that points to the BCATP article. I changed "Commonwealth Air Training Plan" to "British Commonwealth Air Training Plan" in a number of articles last night, specifically, those where the BCATP is definitely the correct reference.
Most of the articles written about Canadian locations are reasonably correct, but some of them used the expression "Commonwealth Air Training Plan" to refer to the BCATP. SteveTheAirman (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brian, here's a good example of the linking problem. Have a look at the article for the English actor "Christopher Lee." He served in the RAF during the Second World War and according to the article, was sent to South Africa for aircrew training via the "British Commonwealth Air Training Plan." Obviously, Lee's training had nothing to do with the BCATP. SteveTheAirman (talk) 20:44, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point. I'd take this one step at a time. Make any necessary changes, etc. to this article, then those other changes can be made. It may take a while, but at least the main article would be more accurate.-- BC  talk to me 00:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Revision Started[edit]

Rhodesian, South African, and Bermudan sections removed. SteveTheAirman (talk) 02:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask for an update on these revisions?
If it helps at all;
Under a parallel agreement, the Joint Air Training Scheme, South Africa trained aircrew for the South African Air Force and other Allied air forces. Southern Rhodesia, as a British Crown Colony, was not a signatory of the BCATP; the Rhodesian Air Training Group (RATG) was created in January 1940 to provide the same function, being subsumed by the RAF later in the same year.
http://britishaviation-ptp.com/airspeed_as10.html#prodlistRAF note #13
So, JATS applied specifically to South Africa
And RATG applied specifically to Southern Rhodesia
Meanwhile I'm sure you have already seen this from the Rhodesian Air Force article.
By January 1940... Air Vice-Marshal Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris was desperate for trained aircrew and turned for help to Southern Rhodesia (where Harris had enlisted in 1914). Harris was frustrated by delays launching Commonwealth Air Training Plan stations in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Southern Rhodesian Prime Minister Godfrey Huggins (1933–53) recognised an opportunity not just to aid Britain and the Allies, but also to boost the domestic economy.
WendlingCrusader (talk) 00:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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