Talk:Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture

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Video Games[edit]

As they are part of popular culture, I think there should be a video games section. Personally, this would be an interesting section, since video games are some of the few popular culture references that don't specifically go straight to the Thermopylae battle. Some notable games that have been influenced by Spartan culture that I can think of off the top of my head would be Halo, the Age of Empires series plus Age of Mythology, Rome: Total War, Spartan: Total Warrior. Shrumster 11:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but the rest of the article could probably use a re-write as well, since many items seem to assume that only the Battle of Thermopylae is ever referenced... indeed the current article could well be called Thermopylae in Popular Culture. 212.57.228.21 11:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And there's the mentioning of Thermopylae in the last battle scene in The Last Samurai.

I question putting Halo in there as all that it relates to Sparta is the name Spartan II, I don't think it relates specically to Sparta in an historical contexts say compared with God of War which states that he is a ex-Spartan commander. I'll change this in 2 days if no one objects. Alchemy101 12:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Halo should be removed as it contains only minor references to Sparta. 76.102.63.117 02:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why has the ancient epitaph not been mentioned on this page? 'Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws, we lie' This is the most poignant reminder of the battle.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.171.111 (talk) 22:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd invite you all to go read the back-story to Halo in order to get a feel of the level of Spartan culture they put into the game. Particularly the training the Master Cheif goes though, lessons on teamwork, tactics, resourcefulness, etc. In retrospect, Halo's fictional SPARTAN-II program does make a futuristic Spartan. I'm not gonna rip line out of the book and quote them here unless it's really necessary, but Halo is the forefront for Video Games making references to the Spartan military. Ghostalker 07:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They actually do reference Sparta quite a bit in the Halo backstory, as has been mentioned. In 'The Fall of Reach', they explicitly mention and explain Thermopylae several times as well as the namesake for the unit's designation. Finally, several aspects of the plot (i.e. trained from approximately 7 to be an elite, well-equiped and cohesive fighting unit unwilling to accept defeat against numerically superior forces) clearly show the Spartan influence. TheNobleDuke 05:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but I believe that the "Sparta in Popular Culture" section should be limited to games that actually take place in or directly feature Sparta, not vaguely reference it. 76.102.63.21 01:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why has Halo been added again? First of all, the section incorrectly states that Master Chief is a Spartan (not a SPARTAN), which may lead to confusion in non-Halo aficionados. Second of all, as the issue of whether or not Halo should remain is still under debate here, I don't believe another poorly thought-out paragraph on the subject should be added. 24.6.14.215 00:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be mentioned at the very least. If you don't want to add the game, at least add "The Fall of Reach" to the books section. There is very clearly a section devoted to discussing sparta and the spartan way of life.

I don't have any objections to adding 'Fall of Reach' to the books section if it really does thoroughly cite Sparta, however the Video Game section, as is being discussed here, should not have Halo added (see above).24.6.14.215 03:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another aspect of Sparta in popular culture[edit]

I think this article leaves out the two other aspects of Spartn culture that the city state is remembered for. 1) As a "fascist", "militaristic" spoil to "democratic". "humanist" Athens. 2) And as slave holders, most famously of the Messenian helots. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.49.242.230 (talk) 13:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I have moved the Sparta in popular culture to Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture as all of the information came cut from the Battle of Thermopylae page and had nothing to do with Sparta in general. So the above may have to wait until someone changes "Sparta in popular culture" from a redirect into an article. --Philip Baird Shearer 06:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And ofcourse[edit]

And Sparta is of course also famous for pederasty:

According to Erich Bethe,

What the Dorians brought was boy-love as a publicly recognized and honorable institution. The Dorians strictly regulated the love relationship between man and boy and treated it as a very important arrangement very publicly with honorable earnestness under the protection of the family, society, the state, and religion. . . . In Sparta, Crete, and Thebes. . . . the education of the ruling class, resting on pederasty, [was directed towards] arete and manly virtue, which principally manifested itself in war.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_pederasty

Ahassan05 13:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)ahassan05[reply]

How does this relate to "Sparta in Popular Culture"? 24.6.14.215 03:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because these are other aspects of Spartan culture that are prevalent in popular culture. This article focuses on Thermopylae in Popular culture. But generally when one uses the term Spartan, or when Sparta is depicted in literature the allusion has the flavor of militarism, an idea which is not at all captured by this article. This artile ought to be renamed Thermopylae in popular culture.

I have moved the Sparta in popular culture to Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture as all of the information came cut from the Battle of Thermopylae page and had nothing to do with Sparta in general. So the above may have to wait until someone changes "Sparta in popular culture" from a redirect into an article. --Philip Baird Shearer 06:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

God of War should not be on the list, it is a reference to Sparta but not Thermopylae itself. 65.106.151.211 23:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greek story[edit]

Surley this article should have some info on the effect of the battle in modern day greece(Gnevin 08:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC))[reply]

It contains a link to the actual battle which covers the general grounding of the role of the battle in the war against the Persians. However if you know of any specific impacts of the Battle itself on Greece, feel free to be bold.

Cicero quote[edit]

I removed the Cicero quote, which was in the wrong spot as it was not a poem, and in fact was not written by Cicero at all. It's adapted from his Tusculan Disputations, with additional info from Herodotus I suppose, but it actually comes from chapter 5 of Wheelock's Latin. Cicero would have never written something so easy to read! Adam Bishop (talk) 16:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody put it back. You're right: I found the original passage and indeed it barely resembles the passage in Wheelock, so I've removed it again. In case anybody is curious, this has the original passage in paragraph 101, and is the source cited by Wheelock. - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:03, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Popular culture, literature[edit]

It's my understanding that Mary Renault's book The Lion in the Gateway is not a novel, but nonfiction. In that case, shouldn't this item be removed? Margaret Donsbach (talk) 23:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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What about the 2006 film “300”?[edit]

I added a reference to the 2006 film “300”, but it was immediately reversed. Why are we not allowed to mention this film?

Section: 21st century

The 2006 film 300 is a fictionalized retelling of the battle, co-written and directed by Zack Snyder, based on the 1998 comic series of the same name by Frank Miller and Lynn Varley.

118.211.183.167 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I adjusted the formatting of your comment since the original formatting would mess up the talk page. Anyway, the reason the addition was reverted is that it was unsourced. This was stated in the edit summary. The sourcing required is outlined at MOS:POPCULT. TompaDompa (talk) 02:24, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TompaDompa Why do you choose to make the article worse by removing unsourced but obviously true information instead of improving it by adding a source yourself? I'm sure you're not disputing the factual accuracy of the film 300 being a popular culture reference to the battle of Thermopylae. :::: Amaurea (talk) 10:07, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pop culture references are not included on articles like this simply because they exist. They are included because they are discussed by WP:Reliable sources on the overarching topic (Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture). The sources that I've come across (somewhat surprisingly) don't have a lot to say about the depiction of the Battle of Thermopylae in 300. They do have a fair amount to say about how the Spartans are portrayed in 300, but that's out of scope for this article. TompaDompa (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TompaDompa I think it's sad that this article can't mention the single most significant popular culture depiction (at least in terms of public exposure) of this battle because a source matching those specific criteria can't be found. Don't you agree that this is a big problem? Is the scope of this article really so narrow? I think everybody would agree that the article would be better if it were mentioned. Isn't that more important than this strict interpretation of the guidelines? Maybe it would be worth it to get feedback from more Wikipedia editors? Amaurea (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TompaDompa The "Historical inaccuracies" section in 300 (film) has a lot of references that discuss various ways in which the depiction of this battle is unrealistic. Don't any of those work for you? Amaurea (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Requiring sources on the overarching topic is what enables us to have high-quality articles of this kind to begin with, as opposed to mere TV Tropes-style lists of examples. This article still has a long way to go in that regard, to be sure, but lowering our standards would be counterproductive. The sources in the section you mention appear to be sources on the film, not on the battle as such. TompaDompa (talk) 04:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amaurea The reason for removing unsourced but obviously true information" is explained at WP:VNT. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus Stopping the quote there makes it misrepresent what I said. The information that was deleted *was* verifiable. Sources for the existence of the film 300, the fact that it depicts this battle, and the fact that it had a large popular impact, can all be found in the wikipedia article for the film. The issue wasn't that it wasn't verifiable, but that a source was missing. It's more constructive to resolve this by providing a source than to delete the information. Amaurea (talk) 19:28, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide a source that says that this film is a significant representation of the battle? I agree this should be possible, and if so, I'd expect TompaDompa to concur that it can be mentioned here (although they will, of course, review the source and express their views, I don't presume to speak for them). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So let's get this straight. You need a source to say that the film 300 is a significant representation of the battle. That's like saying the leaves are green but then asking for a source that says so. It's a bit preposterous that Wikipedia has lost its credibility due to obvious play of egos from people who make rules but it only applies to others, not themselves. Embarrassing. 199.66.69.4 (talk) 19:51, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sourcing required to mention the film 300 on the article Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture is different from the sourcing required to mention the Battle of Thermopylae on the article 300 (film). That the film depicts the battle is uncontroversial, but merely mentioning instances of the battle appearing in popular culture is not how we construct quality articles on topics like this. That approach leads us to TV Tropes-style lists, which is what this article was a year ago (prior to the AfD discussion). The way to get a quality article is to add analysis, and that requires proper sourcing lest we engage in WP:Original research. The essay WP:CARGO outlines this fairly well, in my opinion. Another way of putting it would be this: yes, we need WP:Reliable sources to say that the film 300 is a significant representation of the battle, because that is a judgment call about the relative importance of different depictions of the battle and we are not supposed to make such judgment calls but leave them to the sources (the sources may, for instance, consider the comic 300 to be an important aspect of the overarching topic without considering the film to be so). TompaDompa (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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