Talk:Baseball scorekeeping

Referring to players[edit]

I thought this article was quite comprehensive. However, when the article instructs the reader how to refer to a player, it suggests either refering to their position in the batting order or their uniform number. When I score, I note players by the position they are playing in (ie. 5 for 3B, 8 for CF.) Do I act out of line with convention, or do other people score in this way as well?

Andy4226uk 18:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've never actually known anyone who uses the jersey numbers either, although I understand how that could work for someone. I personally use the batting order (a runner advances because of what the #6 hitter does, for example), but I'm sure I'm a minority in that. Most of the "how to score" pages I've seen in programs do it with the position numbers like you say. But as long as it's decipherable, there really isn't a "wrong" way. -- dakern74 (talk) 06:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Using position numbers could lead to confusion when, say, the starting left fielder ("7") ends up playing right field ("9") later on in the game. You wouldn't want to attribute his RBI to 7 earlier and 9 later and have to check the defensive alignment in adding them up. I think that the batting slots, #1 to #9 work best for this, because the order is consistent and no player ever changes his slot during a game. I never considered using uniform numbers -- maybe because I used to score games off the radio broadcast and couldn't very well see the numbers. WHPratt (talk) 19:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

I do not enjoy this article. Sure, it's not encyclopedic, but it's a much better read as it is. In any case, a comment about the so-called "redundancy" of "F" for flyout. Unassisted groundouts to first are quite common; if this were scored 3, one wouldn't know if it were a flyout or groundout unless it's scored G-3 or U-3 or 3U. Although unlikely, it's also possible a fly ball could deflect off one fielder and be caught by another, in which case it might be scored, say, 4-3 if the second baseman deflects the ball and the first baseman catches it. In this case, it looks like a normal groundout. So even if we normally assume that two numbers together indicate a ground out, and that one number alone indicates a flyout, these situations present a problem. The first can be resolved by G-3 or 3U notation; the second needs an "F" to make sense, even though it would almost never occur in real life. So that's one case where an "F" would not be redundant. FWIW, when I score a game I usually just write F-8 or F-4 or whatever. It doesn't really matter though. Also, F can designate a fly caught in foul territory; I usually write F-9F. Of course, anytime it's a foul out it has to be a fly ball, so the first F is unnecessary, even if it were to be a situation where the ball defelcts off one fielder and is caught by another. So 4-3F would obviously be a fly ball.Kevin M Marshall 22:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

This article needs to be revamped to make it more encyclopedic. I suggest getting rid of biased quips (i.e. "#21 Jeff Kent, the Giants 2nd baseman, and currently a traitorous member of the LA Dodgers", also, finally, in a clear NPOV violation, the use of "IMHO," Internet shorthand for In My Honest/Humble Opinion). This is a good article, but could be made better by editing out NPOVs. Thanks. IanManka 03:39, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Removed NPOV comments and tag. Steven McCrary 04:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup[edit]

I'm a scorekeeper for a semi-pro baseball team in Washington, I'll do my best to clean this page up, and do something about those horrendous looking, humongous pictures. Evan Reyes 08:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know what, scratch that. It'll take too much time that I just don't have to fix it all. Evan Reyes 08:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Transwiki[edit]

Anyone else agree that, after this is cleaned up, it would be more at home at Wikibooks. Wikipedia has explicit restrictions about how-to manuals, which is what a good article would be. Any thoughts?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Djrobgordon (talk • contribs) 03:08, 20 July 2006.

I like the idea of a how to being in wikibooks, but a page that atleast explains each acrynom used would be nice to be kept here with a link to the wikibook.Sir hugo 13:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup 2[edit]

I needed a good project. I've also been an official scorer in my day, and still keep sheets at every game I go to (which is like three a week). Always thought of writing up something like this, if only as a good time-wasting activity in the winter. I'll take a shot over the next few days. Since I have my own form (I get that "are you a scout" question constantly), I've got plenty of blank programs, so I'd also want to try making up a more legible, more accurate, maybe more varied, sample sheet to scan. At least one that proves itself (anyone figure that out?!) And certainly one where the scorekeeper doesn't admit right in the article that he was drunk at the time. Sigh. Dakern74 05:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The hand-written sheets shown do get points for authenticity, but that's all they're good for. I think that the article would be more instructive using cleaner examples, even if fabricated (so as to show a variety of situations), and composed by someone with decent calligraphy (and no mustard stains). WHPratt (talk) 19:46, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Revision[edit]

Please see my rewritten page at User:Dakern74/Baseball_scorekeeping and offer any comments there. I'd like to replace this article sometime soon since it has been tagged for cleanup since June. Thanks. -- dakern74 (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Runner hit by batted ball[edit]

How do you score a runner that is hit by a batted ball and called out ball is dead batter awarded 1st? WilliamKF 02:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A batter hit by his own ball while running up the baseline is credited to the catcher. When a runner gets hit, the batter is credited with a single, and the putout on the runner goes to the nearest fielder. Hope this helps. -- dakern74 (talk) 05:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But if it is the runner on 1st that is hit going to 2nd, and you credit it to 2nd baseman, does that mean it is fielder's choice, hence no single for batter? WilliamKF 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's merely bookkeeping, to assign every out to a fielder even if the fielder had nothing to do with the play. It's not a fielder's choice, because the fielder did not actually make a play. The batter gets credit for a base hit. The runner is out for interference. Wahkeenah 00:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Umpire hit by batted ball ?[edit]

Last week in the Pirates-Tigers game in Pittsburgh, the second base umpire tried to get out of the way, but the batted ball hit his left foot, bounced into right field, where it gave the fielders much trouble. Instead hitting into a double play, the batter got a double, with nobody out. I looked at Ground rule double, and found no mention of umpire hit by ball and found nothing in Umpire (baseball) either. Anybody know a rule that would apply?--W8IMP 05:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The official rule reads as follows: 5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when — … (f) A fair ball touches a runner or an umpire on fair territory before it touches an infielder including the pitcher, or touches an umpire before it has passed an infielder other than the pitcher; If a fair ball touches an umpire working in the infield after it has bounded past, or over, the pitcher, it is a dead ball. If a batted ball is deflected by a fielder in fair territory and hits a runner or an umpire while still in flight and then caught by an infielder it shall not be a catch, but the ball shall remain in play. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches a runner after being deflected by an infielder, the ball is in play and the umpire shall not declare the runner out. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the infielder and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball; runners advance if forced; … — Michael J 08:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Michael J has correctly cited rule 5.09; "The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base...when a fair ball touches...an umpire on fair territory before it touches an infielder including the pitcher..."

I stand corrected. The batter only got to first and moved the player to second. Most of the Phillies fans thought their team could have easily turned the double play if it had not hit the umpire's foot. It does seem as though rule 5.09 was followed.--W8IMP 01:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citations[edit]

Hmmm... I'm very confused by all the "citation needed" tags. Most of the information so tagged is utterly obvious to anyone who has kept score to a game before... including citations in every case would be tantamount to requiring citation for "George W. Bush is the current president of the United States." That said, I have numerous scorebooks and game programs with "how to keep score" features. I may put in one or two citations to the Official Cincinnati Reds Scorebook, copyright Cincinnati Reds, 1984 if I can figure out how to enter this citations. I know some folks out there will have a better, more recent, and more easily cited source, too.

Also, I'm going to adjust the description of how to score an out. While it is perfectly ligitimate to write and circle the out that player represents, that's not what's done in the sample scorecard; the descriptions here should at least be somewhat consistent with the example.Moishe Rosenbaum 02:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I cleaned up the stuff I indicated above. Can we remove the "This article doesn't cite any references or sources" tag? Everything written is general, common knowledge to anyone who has scored a game. "How to score a game" guides are utterly ubiquitous, and two of them are indicated at the bottom of the page as references. Now that I've followed the external links, I can say that at least the top three provide reliable sources backing the information contained. I'm a professional scorekeeper (for STATS, LLC), and other contributions above suggest the authors of this page are folks with serious scorekeeping experience; I can vouch that the information presented is consistent with everything I've ever seen. It seems quite silly to me to ask for further evidence. The sky is indeed blue without reference to the literature.

That said, I recognize -- as does the article -- that every scorekeeper has an individual style, and that (not unlike Wikipedia itself) there are very few hard and fast rules. As long as the events in a baseball game can be, to some extent, reconstructed by the from the scorecard by the scorekeeper, then that scorecard is successful. The sample scorecard and some of the descriptions of how to record events are done differently than I would. That's fine, and should not be confused with any controversy or fundamental disagreement over the rules of scoring. Though I use different notation, I am easily capable of reconstructing the Giants-Brewers game shown based on this person's scorecard.Moishe Rosenbaum 03:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Batter bats twice in inning[edit]

I'm new at keeping score in baseball and I want to know what do I have to do when a batter bats twice in the same inning. It has never happened to me so far, but if it happens what should I do? I mean the box where I'm supposed to keep score of his second turn-at-bat in the inning it's been filled already with the info of his first turn-at-bat. Sorry if this question seems stupid to you but as I said I'm new at this and I have not found the answer anywhere on the internet. Thanks in advance! . basebrookie

As with all baseball scorekeeping, every person does it differently. So the best I can tell you is how I do it. I just continue the inning into the next column, by crossing out the inning-number at the top and replacing it with the correct number. For example, if all nine batters come up in the third inning, I will continue by using the column for the fourth inning, and at the top it will look like this:

4\!\!\!\!\diagup {\mathit {3}}

. (Of course, this means you have to move every future inning over by one as well, so you will have

5\!\!\!\!\diagup {\mathit {4}}

,

6\!\!\!\!\diagup {\mathit {5}}

, etc.) This usually isn't a problem because most scoresheets have columns for extra innings, and in games where one team bats around, the score is often so lopsided that extra innings don't happen. — Michael J 16:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also continue onto the next inning's column, and then when the inning ends I darken the border around the boxes of the borrowed squares to group them visually with the previous column. But, I then continue the next inning in it's own column, because the odds of 9+ batters being up two innings in a row are pretty slim (I'm scoring at major league games), and things line back up pretty nicely this way. --194.98.58.121 (talk) 12:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is an ancient question thats been answered twice, but what the heck. I am a little different from most people in that I go backwards. The prior inning is not likely to have batted around, and these long innings usually only last another couple batters or so after 9. I prominently indicate what I'm doing with arrows pointing diagonally down to the left and continue in that prior column, marking the borders of the extra at-bat to seperate it from the prior inning. I do it that way because if you go forward it is annoying to cross out the column headers and lose space for more innings if it goes into extra innings. (most sheets only give you maybe 12 innings) Aaron north (T/C) 21:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

↉?[edit]

There's a Unicode character, U+2189, which displays as ↉ (that's 0/3, if your browser doesn't have it) which is evidently solely used for baseball scoring. In fact there's a Wikipedia page ↉, but it's a redirect to here. But the article doesn't mention it at all. The relevant Unicode code chart mentions something about "ARIB STD B24". —Steve Summit (talk) 02:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As a retired sportscaster who has been scoring baseball games for nearly half a century, I cannot recall ever using the symbol 0⁄3. I can't imagine what it would represent. → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 04:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would be convenient to have symbols for 1/3 and 2/3 for innings pitched (or innings played), so maybe that's it. WHPratt (talk) 05:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's for when a pitcher pitches into an inning but does not record an out. I note it as "7+". I could see "7↉" meaning the same thing. Very interesting that it's potentially used just for baseball scorekeeping. @StringTheory11: is the user that created the redirect. Perhaps they can shed some light? — X96lee15 (talk) 13:23, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, zero thirds could be used to indicate a zero that doesn't quite mean nothing. they used to use a footnote, e.g., flag the "7" in the innings pitched column and note "x--faced two batters in eighth." WHPratt (talk) 15:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to say, whatever the usage is, somebody must have been pretty sure of it, because they managed to convince the Unicode Consortium to add the character. And the Unicode database, as I mentioned, makes reference to "ARIB STD B24".

Now, if you do a web search for "ARIB STD B24", it's not hard to find. It's a Japanese standard for an XML-based "Broadcast Markup Language", and Wikipedia even has an article on it. Here's one copy I found online. But it doesn't even seem to mention baseball, let alone baseball scorekeeping, ~~let alone the mystical ↉ notation~~. So this is a bit of a mystery. —Steve Summit (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The ↉ character does show up on page 65 of ~~the ARIB standard~~. (Also in the table on p. 47.) —Steve Summit (talk) 16:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the link I meant to post (to a document with "↉" on pages 47 and 65) was this one. —Steve Summit (talk) 20:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Japanese Wikipedia page that describes the usage of 0⁄3 for baseball "pitching times". Kr2009 (talk) 04:35, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

jp:投球回 is the Japanese Wikipedia article for innings pitched which says that if a pitcher changes mid-inning, add 1/3 for each out taken when pitching. If the pitcher leaves without getting any outs, the innings pitched are recorded as ↉. In addition, even if there is an inning in which he pitched over the innings but did not get an out, he is recorded as ↉. Apparently this Japanese baseball convention was implemented in the ARIB STD B24 character set with characters assigned for ↉, ⅓, and ⅔. That character set was then imported/merged into Unicode as part of Unicode 5.2.0 (August 2009). --Marc Kupper|talk 21:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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