Talk:Barmy Army

Rugby League touring fans "Barmy army" in 1980's

I would like to add that the Australian media first described the thousands of travelling Rugby League fans during an Ashes tour in the 1980's as the "Barmy army" well before the cricket fans began to adopt the name.

Context, please?

Pardon me if I'm missing something, but as an American I am rather unaware of the context of the phrase "Barmy Army". If as it says below in the comment by Simon Lamb that the phrase is widely-used, could something be added to refer to its broader context? I'm fairly sure that the phrase existed before the circa-1990 history related in this article, since The Exploited's first album (Punk's Not Dead) has a song called "Exploited Barmy Army", and that was published in 1981.

I am vaguely aware that barmy is an existant word, something like a synonym of frothy, and I am also aware that the British have a fondness for rhyming slang (not that barmy rhymes with army, but one could imagine someone thinking that it does)... but if the origin of this particular phrase is simply lost in the murk of pub-lore, then it should at least be stated as such in the article. Or that's what I think.

Eric Fraker 05:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you on about? Barmy means crazy, not frothy. And barmy does indeed rhyme exactly with army. The spelling's a clue!Manormadman (talk) 04:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Well...if you actually look in a dictionary, Erik is correct, barmy also means "frothing" and "excited" and not only crazy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FF 02 (talk • contribs) 07:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I remember the phrase 'barmy army' used in playground chants in London in the early 1960's. 'Barmy' meant 'nutty' or 'slightly mad'. I have no recollection of it being affiliated with any particular football club but later appropriated by many and eventually by this rabble of middle-class cricket fans. I suspect it's real origins go much further back in history than is hinted at here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.82.164 (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Milestones

Am not sure if this is the right template, but this section definitly doesn't read like an encylcopedia. e.g. "We raised..." The One00 12:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"It was perhaps the Australian media's description during the tour that created the name (the original name given to them was not printable)" Wikipedia isn't censored so does anyone know what the original name was?

Barmy Army was an old Football song and I can clearly remember it being sung at the Cricket in 1993 and on tour to the Windies before it was used in Australia. Its not one of the songs they use now just a repetitive "Barmy Army, Barmy Army" over and over. Thats why they started to be called the Barmy Army, I think they were first referred to as that on SKY TV during the away tours 1993-1995. The organised Barmy Army which is a limited Company just took their name from that.

Removal of "Irony" section

This section seems to me to be irrelevant to the article. The Army's chants reflect that many of Australia's citizens originate from convict colonies. As with any 'humorous' jibe at another nation, the chanters would hardly be expected to enter into any level of historical analysis; most probably are of Australians' origins. Aside from that, this section seems a slightly strange socio-historical intrusion into an article which is unrelated to any political issues. Unless anyone can provide a referenced article or piece of research which suggests that this is a notable aspect of Barmy Army history/practice, then it should stay deleted.

Imagine having a section in the article on Star Wars which speculated that George Lucas was unaware of the message sent by Luke Skywalker wearing white and Darth Vader wearing black. Just because someone notices this kind of thing, doesn't mean that it is notable.Martpol 13:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Reinclusion of "Irony" section

One of the central tenets of the Barmy Army's approach to their chanting is that their humour is tinged with more sophisticated constructs such as "irony". Indeed many of their tunes display undoubted 'ironical' elements. However, the Army has also ignored the counter-ironical elements which are present in their lyrics. I believe these to be worthy of inclusion in this article and propose their reinstatement.

If you disagree, I would suggest a more fruitful avenue for your next edit is to include positive examples of the Barmy Army's 'irony'.

Re reinclusion of "Irony" section

Whilst I think the matter speaks for itself, I have included references to Australian genealogical websites which affirm the origin of convict transportation to Australia. I had previously included the reference to the Barmy Army chants. I kindly ask you to desist in deleting this section. As an alternative, feel free to include your own positive examples of the Barmy Army's approach to irony. User:Timmiorusselli

• Sorry, but this is still not worthy of inclusion unless you or another contributor can actually provide references to (a) whether there is a general belief that the Barmy Army's chants are 'ironic' or (b) whether this 'irony' is 'lost' on the Army's members. Otherwise, this is pure speculation. I would "include my own positive examples of the Barmy Army's approach to irony" if I really thought they were being ironic, but I don't. For now, I'm leaving in the note about the chants themselves, but removing the links (this isn't the right place for information about Australian penal colonies, except for the internal link that I have now established). - Martpol 12:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Given the under-referenced nature of the 'Barmy Army' article generally, the section on irony is notable for the volume of its references (3 notes for this paragraph versus 0 for the entire remainder of the article). However, I can now provide you with the specific reference that you seek on (a) and in fact refer you to the following page on the Barmy Army's own website [[1]]. If the section on irony is deleted in the future, then much of the original article will need to be deleted on a matching basis, to the extent it lacks references (ie. the "Timeline 0f Notable Events". - User:Timmiorusselli 17.29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• OK, I'm leaving some of this to stand. But the whole relevance of "irony" is still unclear in this section. There is nothing clearly explained as being ironic, which warrants the section heading "Irony".

Where does the "irony" lie: in the chants themselves (I'm yet to see an example of one that is. They may be satirical, humorous, offensive - but ironic?)? Or in the juxtaposition of the chants' subject matter and the truth about the origins of Australian convicts? There is little clarity here. And we still don't have any reference for the claim that "This has been a point frequently lost on members of the Barmy Army during their Australian tours." Until this "point" is explained more clearly, and until it is referenced, it should stay out of what is otherwise (generally) a facts-based article. - Martpol 19:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Martpol, how long is a piece of string? You seem like an intelligent individual so I suspect the struggle you are having identifying the ironical elements in the article is contrived rather than real. I'll give you a couple of days to think about this and to read the material on the Barmy Army website (much of which seems to have been cut and pasted into the Wikipedia article without any great thought given to it). If you can find a more neutral way of commenting on the fact that the Barmy Army's remarks about penal colonies focus unduly on the destination of convict settlement rathet than the source of same, then please put finger to keyboard. If not then I will need to reinstate the original wording. User:Timmiorusselli.

• Have checked the referenced page on the Barmy Army website and notice that it makes absolutely no claim that the chants themselves are intended to be ironic, only some of the banter directed at Australian fans - "The Army verbally conquered the Aussies with the use of songs, chants, irony and wit". I therefore feel compelled to fend this section away (in much the same way as KP had to fend away the ball that Warney threw at his head at the Gabba yesterday) until factual information is both supplied and cited.

I also think the point is being missed about the origins of the first Europeans to settle Australia - it's not where they came from, merely the fact that they were convicts that the Barmy Army likes to poke fun at. This section may suggest to readers that Australians are in fact proud of their English heritage? BrisbanePom 21:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• On comparing recent versions of the article, I think the problem with the (currently deleted) section is the amount of detail provided, rather than its subject matter. The subject matter of Barmy Army chants might deserve a whole section if enough detail and referenced commentary can be provided to warrant it. Otherwise, it should stay out. Titling the section Irony is also somewhat misleading, as well as sounding rather silly (it reminds me of the chapter titles in Clerks). But since I support BrisbanePom's decision to delete, I'm not volunteering to do that work. - Martpol 07:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes to comments reflecting criticism of Barmy Army

I've removed the words "traditionally minded" from the sentence "However, some traditionally minded cricket followers find the loud, repetitive chanting of the Barmy Army annoying, tedious, and disruptive.", since one does not necessarily have to be "traditionally minded" to feel this way. I've also added a sentence expanding on the misgivings some have about the BA, since the article is notable for its lack of balance in this regard. I've tried to keep these comments neutral POV by simply saying "some feel..." or similar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scholiwiki (talk • contribs) 17:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

I've also added a couple of links at the end, to pieces in the London Times presenting for and against views of the Army. Scholiwiki 18:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I see the sentence I added regarding the widespread perception of the BA as "selfish" has been removed. Perhaps it was indeed unnecessary. However, given the well-known antipathy towards the BA among some other cricket followers, I am not sure that a single sentence acknowledging others' misgivings is enough to provide balance in an article that otherwise reads like a eulogy. I leave it to others to chew over this, however- I'm not sure of the best way of addressing it. However, it would be easy enough to provide links to articles by prominent cricket writers criticising the BA, if the issue is one of referencing. Scholiwiki 20:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Further to the above, I've simply added one further comment with a supporting link. I think this goes some way towards better reflecting the range of opinions regarding the BA. Scholiwiki 01:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Importance?

Honestly, what is the point in this page? I think some people forget that wikipedia content is supposed to be encyclopedic! I think a large number of people probably still associate the term with football for starters, regardless of whether this group has called themselves the barmy army. Secondly, to me and I'm sure to many others its like a group of guys putting up a wikipedia page of themselves called "The Lads" or something and writing "The Lads are a crazy group of guys from Kent who like to go out and have a good time on a Saturday. Notable nights out include meeting Prince Harry in 2005" etc. I actually think this page should be deleted or moved (to Barmy Army (Cricket)) unless somebody can explain why the widely used term Barmy Army should just apply to this lot. It reads like its been written by a member and the neutrality seems suspect if you ask me as well. --Simon Lamb 14:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There are clearly issues with this page, but the Barmy Army are notable enough to clearly merit a Wikipedia entry of some sort. It's patently not true that they're just another group of lads - they have been uniquely well known to probably most English cricket followers over a sustained period of time, and regularly attract considerable comment in a range of major media cricket coverage (some of which could be found and referenced in the article by anyone with the time to do it). When they first emerged they were considered a genuine phenomenon, in the sense that for better or for worse they have changed the atmosphere at international cricket matches involving England. They've also had substantial impact in the countries that they've toured, particularly Australia. Cmch83 11:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

If anyone wants to dispute whether or not Barmy Army warrants a Wikipedia entrance, try just saying the words "Barmy Army" to anyone on the street in England and I'm sure most will know what you're talking about. I found this article because I referred my American girlfriend specifically to wikipedia for an explanation of who they are - I would have been shocked had it not been here! -- [androobe] Androobe (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Like the rest of the wikipedia community, I am pleased that you now have a girlfriend. However I endorse your view that this article needs to stay and should not be deleted. Kind regards--Calabraxthis ^(talk) 21:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Comprehensive Clean-up and re-write

Whilst I concur with Cmch83 that the Barmy Army is sufficiently notable to maintain a page in its own right, the article is a complete shambles and could do with a wholesale re-write. In particular the "Timeline of Notable Events" section is tedious, gratuitous and serves to undermine the subject matter rather than enhance it. I welcome the thoughts of others on ways to improve this.--Calabraxthis 21:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed much of the non-notable material, fancruft and one of the more irelevant images. This article still needs substantial more work from editors with a detailed knowledge of the subject matter. In particular some decent images would help - surely these cannot be too hard to obtain and would not involve copyright issues? Kind regards--Calabraxthis ^(talk) 13:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== Origin the term barmy army came from the old england pub in preston,

I thought that the Barmy Army was originally the press name for Chelsea F.C. supporters back in the 70s. I had a quick look on the net and although I could not find a reference there is a book called "Barmy Army:The Changing Face of Football Violence" football hooliganism which is an indicator that the term has been used to describe such behaviour. This Guardian article in 2006 records "We're the barmy Chelsea army,".

Also this web page by Hanspeter Kuenzler mentions "London-based Reggae producer Adrian Sherwood recorded a whole album under the pseudonym The Barmy Army, each song incorporating crowd chants in praise of different West Ham United players. An affiliation with football became like a badge of honour for a band with a certain attitude."

Which lead to this "Etched on the 12" copy of the Fourth & Broadway single was the legend - Where's the Barmy West Ham Army? West Ham United". Also this website http://www.thisisthebarmyarmy.co.uk/about.html is a website for Huddersfield Town. So it seems that there were/are several Barmy Armies. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a fairly obvious rhyme, I guess. Google books also shows:

Brewer's Dictionary of Modern Phrase & Fable

Page 53 Barmy army. A phrase used of enthusiastic sports spectators, ... Rowdy cricket fans were nicknamed the 'Barmy Army' on the Ashes tour of Australia in 1994-5 ...

Football Hooligans By Gary Armstrong

[pg 35-6:] A sergeant boarded and spoke melodramatically into his radio, saying 'We've got them, this is the,..the Barmy Army.' Blades stifled a laugh at this reference to a now-discarded term they had once used between 1979 and 1982. [pg. 176:] at Bramall Lane the Shoreham End was defended in the early 1970s by the self-proclaimed 'Shoreham Boot Boys'. By the late 1970s these had become the 'Shoreham Barmy Army'

jnestorius^(talk) 16:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd add that while a student in the late 1970's I regularly heard the Norwich City fans in the Barclay Stand sing "We're the barmy norwich army tra la la la la la", so I'm amending the stuff about Sheffield Wednesday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.49.32 (talk) 13:19, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Loutish anecdotes

Over the last several years, numerous anecdotes about the Barmy Army and its alcohol-fuelled loutish antics have graced the text of this article. Over time, a large majority have been removed too on the grounds of WP:NOTABLE and WP:NOTNEWS. This is not to say that those same anecdotes are untrue or are not "fact", it's just that they lack the features which Wikipedia requires so as to dignify an article with encyclopaedic merit.

I recently reverted an edit on the article which stated During England's tour of West Indies in 2004, some members of the Barmy Army started chanting "Britain never, never shall be slaves" as an obvious racist insult to the black West Indian fans and quoted what clearly seems a reputable source. However the final phrase constituted POV and it was duly removed. I see than an IP address has now re-included most of the anecdote in the History section of the article but without the offending POV wording.

Nevertheless, on its own, this new edit is just another trivial factoid about what the Barmy Army gets up to when it has had too much to drink. The IP editor has also added a new companion factoid In a test match between England and Pakistan at Headingley, 1992, some barmy army members paraded a pig's head on a stick. This is likewise mere trivia. If such factoids are worthy of inclusion, they need to comply with each of WP:TRIVIA, WP:NOTABLE and WP:NOTNEWS otherwise they should be deleted.

If the IP author feels strongly that they are worthy of inclusion then s/he should set out an argument on this talk page which discusses their broader relevancy to the subject matter of the article. I don't doubt that some sort of case can be put here.

But anecdotes by themselves are just anecdotes. I myself attended a Test cricket match in Sydney and one afternoon witnessed 14 members of the Barmy Army being arrested for a variety of ornery misdemeanours and acts of indecency out of a total of only 15 arrests made at the SCG that day..... the notable irony being that the match was between Australia and the West Indies..... England was not even playing.

However notable this may be, along with tedious chanting and pigs' heads on sticks, they are just pieces of trivia, and by and of themselves don't add anything encyclopaedic to this article in their present form. Kind regards--Calabraxthis ^(talk) 07:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

RACIST BEHAVIOUR BY THE 'BARMY ARMY'

Call me old fashioned but I fail to see how drunken England cricket supporters chanting abuse at both Australian Cricket players AND Australian supporters based solely on their place of origin can be construed as anything else than racist behaviour???

For the record... I'm not Australian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.70.148 (talk) 12:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not racist, just confrontational..... and something that Australians also take pride in (counting me amongst such number). Unless the behaviour degenerates to the mindless thuggery of club football in England (projectiles, vomit, mutual crowd-flagellation and all), I suspect the Australian cricket team can take this in its stride. Kind regards--Calabraxthis ^(talk) 21:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Australian's not a race it's nationality consisting of many races, many of which are present in the English nationality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.19.42 (talk) 23:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Cricket Australia make the Barmy Army "commercial Partners"

According to this page http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/theashes/8179469/The-Ashes-2010-10-reasons-why-the-Ashes-is-better-than-the-World-Cup.html in the Daily Telegraph, 3 Dec, they've been made "commercial partners" and their trumpeter is an accredited part of their "entertainment package". I'd add the information myself but I haven't got the hang of doing citations, so can someone who knows what they're doing add it for me, please. MidlandLinda (talk) 22:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Bit of a mess but not a big deal

I came here looking for information on the Barmy Army cricket fans and for that, the article succeeds. But as a fan of the Exploited and English football I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a disambiguation or collection of articles on the phrase. I suppose that the phrase doesn't merit a series of articles and the article on the cricket supporters does. I'm OK with that.

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Origins

The article has a fairly confused account of the origins of the Barmy Army. It needs to be reorganised.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)