Talk:Bardylis

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Barliris could be Bardyllis[edit]

Tertulian on baraliris Tertullian is the only one mentioning this character.And he quotes Callisthenes.

"and I further learn from Callisthenes that it was from the indication of a dream that Baraliris the Illyrian stretched his dominion from the Molossi to the frontiers of Macedon."

He probably is Bardyllis that attacked epirus and macedon after Dionysius I of Syracuse proded and aided him as to change the political situation in Greece.There is no baraliris charakter anywhere else and the acts described in Tertullian refer to the assault by Bardyllis.Megistias (talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The events are described in Diodorus Siculus book 15.map of the attack.Megistias (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diodorus Siculus Hist.Bilbiotheca historica (lib. 1-20)Book 15 chapter 13 section 2 line 4- section 3 line 1--He sent to his allies 2000 soldiers and 500 Greek armors and the Illyrians gave them to the best of their troops and mixed the soldiers(the Greeks) with those of their own. The article is lacking and is full of errorsMegistias (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bardhyllis= Bardh(white)+ yllis(star), Albania(Albanoi=white) Albania was derived from Bardh=white=Albanoi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.122.237 (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no established connection with Illyrians to albanians.Megistias (talk) 22:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the Albanian name for 'Bardyllis' which is Bardhyll which literally means 'white star' (bardh=white, yll=star) hopefully this is ecceptable and if not please give a reason as to why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realmadrid123 (talk • contribs) 14:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I have created the article Bardhyl about the Albanian given name. The article Bardhyl will be the place to explain the origin of the Albanian name and its usage. For this article Bardyllis editors are removing reference to the Albanian name because as far as can be determined, the Albanian name Bardhyl was re-introduced, and giving the Albanian name of Bardyllis is not pertinent according to Wikipedia manual of style. We do not give the Serbian name for Bardyllis either. Also that etymology for Bardyllis meaning "white star" is supported by what reputable linguists? It appears to be a folk etymology. A is putting the smack down (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dionysius aspirations[edit]

Bardyllis united the illyrians and attacked Greece defeating Macedonia and imposing a tax of submission in 385 he advanced still more deeply in Greece making attacks in Epirus as well. These attacks were coordinated from the Dionysius I of Syracuse a Tyrant that wanted to change the Molossian king with Alcetas I of Epirus that was exiled .He Intended to control the Ionian sea.The "Celtic" type army of Bardyllis had been strengthened with 2000 Greek soldiers of magna grecia and 500 bronze thoraxes for their Illyrians. The Epirotes were surprised and lost 15.000 men. At the possession of Epirus the Bardyllis acquired thousands bronze thoraxes and hoplite shields from epirotes that fought with the hoplite way .He began training his army in the hoplite way of battle. Simultaneously he overcame the king [Ptolemy of Aloros]] ruling Macedon that tried to free Macedon from the tax of submission. Afterwards he won his successor Perdiccas III of Macedon killing him. Perdiccas III of Macedon was the father of Phillipp , father of Alexander the Great. When the Spartans learned what happened to the Epirotes and that Dodona was defiled by the illyrians Agesilaus ventured against them and destroyed them completely forcing them to leave Epirus and Macedon.

The events are described by diodorus of Siculus book 15.

Can someone get a secondary source on this? The event doesn't seem to be that important to modern historiansMegistias (talk) 19:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Folk etymology[edit]

Various IPs and short-lived accounts have repeatedly attempted to add an obvious folk etymology to the article, linking the name Bardyllis to modern Albanian. In this [1] edit, it was attempted to back this claim up with a ref to Google Translator. Let's clarify this once and for all: the existence of such a phrase in modern Albanian is beside the point, and references about that are worthless. What you would need is a reliable academic source actually proposing the link between this modern phrase and the ancient name. Such a source is unlikely to exist – it is quite obvious to any linguistically informed reader that such a link would be untenable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The reference for etymology white star in the book An Albanian historical grammar Author Stuart Edward Mann Publisher Buske, 1977 Original from the University of California Length 239 pages link[2] Aigest (talk) 12:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the article was absolutely terrible. Apparently written by somebody who has heard about this concept of "citing references" and trying to emulate it. I have tried to put it on its feet a little bit. The etymology thing is a random factoid about folk etymologies handed around in Albania, and it is perfectly worthless without context. --dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"King Whitestar" is folk etymology if there ever was such a thing. The very notion that an ancient name could have an etymology in a modern language is sheer nonsense. All the more so when we can't even be sure if the languages are even related. Athenean (talk) 15:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FPS asked for academic sources. He got three. Now the short lived accounts are becoming long lived. It's gotta be now FPS, Dab, and Athenean's burden of proof that this is folk etimology, which so far is only in their minds. --Sulmues (talk) 15:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Athenean and Dab can you bring a reference for your deductions? You can't just change the wording of three sources because you consider it a folk etymology.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:19, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
None of your sources claim that this is the etymology, because that is of course impossible. Ancient names cannot have etymologies based on modern languages. So if anything, the burden of proof is on you to prove that "White Star" is the etymology og Bardyllis. Good luck with that. Athenean (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like it is also impossible for you to find sources that this is folk etimology. --Sulmues (talk) 17:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's spelled "etymology", by the way. Athenean (talk) 17:44, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll then kindly ask you to be the reviewer of Skanderbeg, when I'll relist it, since the current one disclaims any opinions on language. --Sulmues (talk) 17:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peresadyes[edit]

Peresadyes were Thracians as the latest archeological data dictate. Thracian origin ref . Please do not insert "illyrian" POV by removing referenced facts diff, diff, diff . You have done it more than 3 times. Megistias (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are 2 theories, add the Thracian theory too, but don't remove the Illyrian theory and don't disrupt the prose which is much more encyclopedic than the previous one.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No their Origin was Thracian as archeology exhibits. Your POV is typical and unacceptable.Megistias (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Bardyillis" etymology[edit]

I wish the Albanian patriots could forget about the Iron Age for five minutes and try to get their economy on track instead: Patriotism is love of the homeland. I see little love of or benefit for the homeland in swamping the internet with crappy pseudo-etymologies. --dab (𒁳) 13:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wish admins not to have this kind of behavior and mentality. Aigest (talk) 14:48, 28 September 2010 (UTC)b[reply]
Dab if you are trying to bait the Albanian "nationalists" by calling valid sources "pseudo etymologists" and by inviting them to improve their economy, you might achieve your objective, because they might say something you will block them for. What you will not achieve is to remove valid sources that claim what you don't agree with. Can you please discuss sources here rather than remove references? --Sulmues (talk) 15:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have yet to see a reliable source that the "star" etymology is taken seriously by any actual linguist. The one I see cited, saying that it is linked "by tradition", isn't ascribing that tradition to serious linguists. Based on common sense, and on what we know about the state of knowledge about Illyrian and about the supposed Illyrian–Albanian continuity, it is plain obvious that this is a folk etymology, and that no serious linguist in their right mind could possibly see a rational basis for assuming such an etymology as a matter of fact. In these circumstances, the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing" applies, and stands against this etymology. "Folk etymology" goes back into the article, as far as I'm concerned. [By the way, I found a snippet hint on google that Krahe may have some actual discussion of the name somewhere, but I haven't been able to follow up on that yet.] Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Oh, and, by the way, the second author cited, Hodgkinson, doesn't seem to be a linguist, but a "Journalist, writer, Naval Intelligence Officer and Balkan expert", and the third footnote lacks author attribution – make sure you find the author of the actual piece of text, not just the editor or whatever of the whole book.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Alain Ducellier[3].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, a decent enough author, but not an historical linguist either. BTW, at the risk of a bit of OR: actual historical linguistics of Albanian seems to reconstruct a root for bardhe that would have IE and prehistoric Albanian *g in the middle, not *d, as the "Bardyllis" connection would seem to entail [4]. Given this little stumbling block, can you please confirm you have actually read the Mann book, beyond that google snippet, and can vouch for whatever else he says or doesn't say about the name? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can vouch for reading that chapter and part of the next one. I could get the book again in a couple of weeks and scan the whole page if that's necessary. Btw I was troubled by the same OR too and then I found that some Latin sources name him as Bargulis/Bargulus(which led me to even more OR).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:03, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Folk etymology, again[edit]

Just when I thought the folk etymology nonsense had stopped, it's starting again, courtesy of some users who simply won't let this go, using whatever sources they can scrape from the bottom of the barrel. Specifically:

  • A source from 1953 (Kretschmer), a good source to be sure, but a little dated and not viewable online. I very much doubt Kretschmer would state that the etymology of Bardyllis is "I bardhe" and "yll".
  • Another off-line source on the origin of the Romanian language, poorly cited and difficult to verify.
  • A study from some kind of Belgian toponyms commision, way off-topic.
  • The 1982 Albanian Academy of Sciences, at the time of Hoxha's rule, when scholars were under orders to look for an "Illyrian" connection. I don't think any scholar in the country at the time would dare do otherwise.

In other words, classic gaming of WP:RS using outdated, off-line, or off-topic sources to push a particular POV. Athenean (talk) 19:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Athenean

  1. Kretschmer is an authority on Illyrians, he states the etymology is white not white star.Online
  2. Rosetti is also an authority on Old Balkan linguistics (see him referenced to Hamp article "Position of Albanian"for eg). Online
  3. Your opinion regarding Academics in ex-socialist countries is strictly personal and very offensive one. Interestingly enough, you have used them in different articles (Georgiev is one example) when it suited your position. According to wiki rules they are WP:RS, deal with it. Online
  4. It is not "a Belgian toponyms commission" but part of Royal Academy of Belgium specialised in onomastic(toponomy and anthroponomy). It writes mainly of Belgian related arguments but also other topics related to onomastics in Europe. Online

P.S. Contrary to your claim all sources were on-line. Rm them without checking first constitutes vandalism. Aigest (talk) 07:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And Another explained in details.

  1. Albanische Etymologien: Untersuchungen zum albanischen Erbwortschatz Volume 7 of Leiden studies in Indo-European Author Bardhyl Demiraj

Publisher Rodopi, 1997 ISBN 9042001615, 9789042001619 page 90 Aigest (talk) 07:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great work Aigest. There's also Hans Krahe [5] and by Pavle Ivić himself too [6]--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

um, Aigest in fact established that the "white star" etymology is nonsense. Aigest also showed a reference that a "white" etymology has been suggested by Kretschmer, and rejected as untenable by other scholars. Please either get it right or let it be. --dab (𒁳) 12:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You deleted Hans Krahe, Pavle Ivic and many others to revert to something about a modern Albanian folk etymology. Obviously Pavle Ivic a Serb scholar isn't modern Albanian folk etymology. I'm starting a RfC and I'd like you dab to explain what makes you consider Pavle Ivic work a modern Albanian folk etymology. Kretschmer is one of them not the only one and which one of the other scholars refuted this? Ivic, Krahe, Rosetti and Demiraj aren't refuting it. In fact they're saying the same thing as Kretschmer, but even if there was a source that rejected it aren't we supposed to not editorialize and just state all cases? Judging by the quantity and the quality of the sources most scholars support the "bardhë" theory, so why exclude it? --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Correction to dab. "White" etymology is generally accepted by scholars(as you can see from many references) while "white star" is a folk one and references used show that. I don't understand why all those references and linked text are removed. For Barduli-Bardh etymology link see also Anton Mayer an expert in Illyrian languages studies in his well known publication Die Sprache der alten Illyrier, Author Anton Mayer Editor Anton Mayer Compiled by Anton Mayer Publisher In Kommission bei R. M. Rohrer, 1957. Do we have to bring a hundred sources for a simple sentence?! Aigest (talk) 14:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bardyllis etymology[edit]

There have been brought many sources about the etymological relation of the Albanian word bardh-ë with the name Bardylis. The sources can be found on above sections. Among other sources are Hans Krahe, Pavle Ivic and Paul Kretschmer. The current version connects it with a modern Albanian folk etymology about the word bardh and yll. If the sources say that the name is related to the word bardh-ë, why can't this be added? If there is a source that rejects it, add that too but why is this being exluded when all these scholars support it? We aren't supposed to choose what's right and wrong but state all cases and let the reader decide.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

White vs white star etymology[edit]

From references is clear that bardh~white is accepted by scholars on Bardyllis, Bardulis and other forms (Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic, Demiraj) while white star is a popular etymology.

Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh~White (IE bhrHg) etymology since 1930' to nowadays

  1. Kretschmer
  2. Krahe
  3. Mayer P
  4. Rosetti
  5. Ivić
  6. Demiraj
  7. Albanian Academy
  8. Belgian Academy

Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh Yll ~ White Star false etymology

  1. Mann

I don't think Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic can be classified as POV pushers, moreover modern Albanians, so refrain yourself from blind reverting Athenean. Aigest (talk) 07:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Aegist: I would appreciate to stop this edit warring activity while this rfc is open.Alexikoua (talk) 12:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alex apparently dab misunderstood what was my position, while Athenean rv blindly without any kind of argumentation why Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosetti, Ivic (all notably non Albanian scholars and authorities on IE linguistic) are to be considered modern Albanian folks and POV?!! The funny thing is that you although an experienced editor also rv blindly without participating in RfC, but just following Athenean rv in an attitude of tag teaming. The many references in the text are very clear and even online (rare thing to have both) so the text is ok. If you are interested in the article give your opinion why my version is not correct, but not go on doing blind reverts. Aigest (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please avoid misusing a number of sources. It has been clearly stated by several administrators [[7]] that this is nothing more than 'nationalistic nonsense'. So at least respect the ongoing rfc which is still open and avoid edit-warring by promoting highly questioned conclusions.Alexikoua (talk) 13:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, clearly, there is a lot of information about the hypothesis. All we have to do is write the theories on the name. As (I am citing him again today) Hamp says, even if Bardhyllis comes from Bardh and Yll it does not mean that Illyrian is descendant of Albanian. Nevertheless, we have to give both perspectives. —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)Alexikoua Aigest is just using the sources. If you think that he's misusing them why don't give an explanation about how he's misusing them.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Zjarithoues: seems you have forgotten your last answer per Fut's proposal [[8]],so wp:disruption can easily apply here (X editor promised to check a specific book before he continues the discussion, but on the proccess he forgets this, and conitnues with the same chaos). Alexikoua (talk) 17:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is a completely irrelevant discussion regarding linguistics, which you don't understand so please don't make deductions. That was a previous discussion about connections to the white star theory, which isn't related at all with the current versions.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Snippet abuse[edit]

The level of abuse of Google Books snippets has reached intolerable levels. The above example by User:Aigest is a case in point. Let's look analytically at all the snippets provided:

  1. Kretschmer The proposal by Krestchmer is quite old, though I suppose it's ok as long as this is made clear.
  2. Krahe The snippet provided shows absolutely nothing. I don't see "bardhe" or Albanian anywhere.
  3. Mayer P This is also from the 50's.
  4. Rosetti No explanation or context whatsoever.
  5. Ivić Is this some kind of joke?
  6. Demiraj Same here. What is this supposed to show?
  7. Albanian Academy Hoxha-era publications should given a wide berth.
  8. Belgian Academy Shows absolutely nothing.

Thus, all I see are a couple of snippets from publications from the 50's, with the rest being either irrelevant, unintelligible, or non-existant. This is poor sourcing and research technique, and has a hint of desperation to it. I suppose I could live "Some 20th century linguists connect the name "Bardyllis" with Alb. "Bardhe".", but it should also be made clear that "King Whitestar" is folk etymology and nothing more. I think Anna's edit, with exception of some grammar, is a step in the right direction. Athenean (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fictious image[edit]

I've removed the image that is supposed to be a modern reconstruction of Bardylis. Apart from its non-informative nature it's also subject to copyright violations, per freedom of Panorama in Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 10:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no requirement for images that illustrate infoboxes to be informative. They need only to provide an illustration. That's what it does.
This image is also not a panorama. To describe a personal photograph of a public statue as a copyright violation is really a stretch. Please provide an Albanian regulation or Wikipedia policy that would be relevant here.
The only other question is whether that statue was constructed to represent Bardylis. In this case I'm inclined to assume good faith on the part of the uploader. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
[[9]] There is a clear cp vio issue (including statues, & there have been several statues pic. deleted because of the panorama laws). Considering the battleground nature of the uploader (adding several anachronistic pictures in a variety of historical articles) I really doubt if an Illyrian king wore a Corinthian type helmet, sounds too weird for someone who knows some basics about ancient warfare.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That is not clear at all. Is the statue still under copyright? Are we using the image commercially? This law does not automatically mean that all pictures of statues must be deleted. What do you know about this statue that qualifies it as a copyright violation? ~Amatulić (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Gbooks hits:

  • Bardylis 338
  • Bardyllis 220
  • Bardulis 141
  • Bardullis 74

I suggest a move to Bardylis.--Zoupan 00:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move 27 August 2014[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved: no objections Ground Zero | t 17:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Bardyllis → Bardylis – As shown by the previous section, the name of this person is mostly spelled with one "L" and not two. Zoupan 08:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

'Bardhë' means 'white' in Albanian, but 'bardhul' means 'gray'[edit]

This is an Albanian-English dictionary you may want to access here [[10]]

There's a word 'bardhul' which actually seamlessly derives from something that Ancient Greeks might record as Bardylis. It means "whitish, hoary, grey-haired" in Albanian, and the meaning 'gray' has been also noted in Messapian according to the article. It is obviously derived from the word "bardhë", with a common Albanian suffix -ul.

Can this be noted in the text too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.5.156 (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bardylis the Dardanian[edit]

I would like to improve the article and elaborate a section about the debates on Bardylis' origins. The current text suggests without doubt that he was Dardanian, although this is nothing else, but N. G. L. Hammond's theory from 1966 that neither Pierre Cabanes, nor Albanian historiography accepted. To cut this short, the origins of Bardylis are not clarified at all, and the article should reflect this. Everyone is in agreement that Bardylis reigned the area around the Lyncistes Lakes, the areas that are historically called Enchele and Dassaretis. Back in 1877 Gustav Zippel suggested that he might have been a descendant of the ancient Enchelean kings (to whom the Trebeništa royal tombs supposedly belong), and this was taken over by other scholars, to be mentioned that Albanian historians prefer to refer to him as an Enchelean king to our days, or avoid to make a statement on his realm. Then in 1966 Hammond came and figured that he must have been a Dardanian, because he did not think that the economically poor (?) Dassaretis could have been his center, and also suggesting that the three major tribes of the Illyrians according to Strabon were the Ardiates, the Autariates and the Dardanians, so the powerful king must have belonged to one of this. There are several problems with this deduction. The Taulantians are not mentioned either by Strabon, yet they became the masters of South Illyria in the second half of the 3rd century BC. Dassaretis had a very important strategic location between Epirus and Macedonia, and Bardylis II restored the power of his grandfather specifically in Dassaretis (see the royal tombs in Selca e Poshtme), so Dassaretis should not be ignored as a possible center for the first Illyrian kings. The first Dardanian king mentioned by name in the ancient sources is Longarus about 150 years after Bardylis' time. The author great Illyrologist, Fanula Papazoglu suggested instead that Bardylis was a descendant of the Lyncestis dynasts (Sirras, etc.), whereas Miltiades Hatzopulos in 1984 recommended that Bardylis was a Dassaretian king, and Pierre Cabanes, the monographist of the Illyrian Kingdom also accepted this thesis. This is the picture in a nutshell, the current article should be improved accordingly. Pasztilla (talk) 11:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also for Dassaretis being economically poor: it had been the craddle of the Maliq culture since the Neolithic Age where (in Vashtëmi) one of the earliest European farming sites was also discovered recently, and the fertile plain of the present day Korça Basin continued to be intensively used as an agricultural land during the ancient times, too. It is well known that the development of the agriculture and shifting from transhumance to wheat cultivating in these centuries resulted in growing population = more soldiers = more powerful Illyrians. Pasztilla (talk) 11:52, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian name?[edit]

PowerlockeDurim: Please make yourself acquainted with WP:BRD: When your Bold edit here was Reverted here, your next step should be to start a Discussion in the talk page. Please also read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EDITWAR. I have reverted back to the current consensus version and started the discussion for you.

What you call ancient illyrian usage (bardh=white+yll=star) is one of the possible etymologies discussed in the section "Etymology", where it is stated that reliable sources consider it a folk etymology. And even if it can be shown that this is a correct etymology, this discussion should be kept in the "Etymology" section. The modern Albanian name does still not merit a place in the lede.

In Wikipedia, we follow the usage of reliable sources in English, see WP:RS. If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. If not, it stays out. --T*U (talk) 06:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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