Talk:Baj Singh

Regarding caste claims[edit]

An anon user recently added this claim, and cited a seemingly self-published dubious source for the same. But these type of sources don't meet WP:HISTRS, which is the standard here for the caste-related sources. My searches to find reliable sources for the "Puar Rajput" bit didn't fetch anything. At the same time, I could find multiple reliable sources for the previously mentioned "Bal Jat" bit, e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. So I will revert their edits. - NitinMlk (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple newbie IP users are continuously reinstating the same content which Sandeep7422 tried to add earlier. Anyway, this time a new IP user tried to find some reliable sources for the "Puar Rajput" stuff, as can bee seen with these edits. They googled four terms, namely "baj singh rajput sikh", and copy-pasted URLs of the sources here without actually reading them, e.g. the only decent source provided by them is this one. But it doesn't mention that Baj Singh was Rajput, although the source shows that the four terms does appear on the page nos. 63 and 95.

Now, this is what page no. 63 mentions about Baj singh: "Ram Singh, a brother of Baj Singh, was made the Executive Controller of Thaneswar and Binod Singh his assistant. Baj Singh, Ram Singh, Koer Singh and Sham Singh were all the four brothers.** Sham Singh worked under Baj Singh and Koer Singh was made a body-guard of Baba Banda Singh." [6]

Similarly, this is what page no. 95 mentions about Baj Singh: "Banda Singh was the King of the Sikhs and Lohgarh was his capital. Fearless fighters, like Baj Singh, were his commanders. The rising power of the Khalsa saw, indeed, during this interval, thousands upon thousands of the Hindus seeking conversion to Sikhism in the territory between the Jumna and the Ravi rivers. The Jatts of the Majha who had never before been really converted to any set creed so far, had now become staunch Sikhs." [7]

So, there doesn't seem any mention of Baj Singh's caste or early life in the source.

Finally, the disruption by the IP users is getting out of hand on this article, resulting in wastage of other editors' time. So it seems that this page needs semi-protection. - NitinMlk (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The latest UGC source added by yet another newbie IP user was written by a user named Sandeep7422, which is clear from that source's edit history. So it seems like a single person is trying to fabricate information at multiple online sites. BTW, looking at the level of fabrication by them, I guess their remaining WP edits also need scrutiny. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Non-scholarly sources[edit]

As usual, an anonymous user has blanked the content based on a scholarly source. And they replaced it with a non-scholarly source of so-called "Sikh University press" & a snapshot of an early 18th-century page which doesn't seem to even mention the subject. But neither of them are WP:HISTRS. So if the anonymous user has a scholarly source for their claim then they should provide it here and should stop blanking the already existing well-sourced content.

PS: A long-term IP-hopper is adding primary & non-scholarly sources and the same 'Puar/Parmar Rajput' claim to multiple Sikh biographies for the last few years (see the previous section). User:Sandeep7422 used to do the same additions to the same set of articles and that resulted in their indefinite block. As the blocking admin (RegentsPark) noted, they used to do the similar disruption "while logged in and while as an IP". In fact, the snapshot reinstated by the anon user today was actually added by User:Sandeep7422 in 2014: [8]. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The reference provided in the previous edit by me is from quite renowned Sikh history book named “Sikh Twareekh”, written in 5 volumes by a celebrated Sikh history writer Harjinder Singh Dilgeer. The volume 1 and volume 3 of the book mentions Baj Singh as a Parmar. It’s baffling what compelled some random wiki editor NitinMlk to remove the aptly sourced content. I thought Wikipedia is a place for truth.

Thanks

Have good day ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.255.232.148 (talk)

Harjinder Singh Dilgeer is a religious leader rather than a historian. Can you provide any scholarly review of his work? - NitinMlk (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a reliable source to verify that Dilgeer specialises in any field of history? - NitinMlk (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, is an illustrious name in Sikh history and is widely noted as an authority on Sikh history. For substantiation you can go through his Wikipedia page Harjinder Singh Dilgeer and read copious list of his 60+ works on Sikh history exclusively. He has also been accepted as National Professor on Sikhism. Professor Dilgeer has indeed stated Baj Singh being a Parmar. The professor is not at all a religious leader as you are framing him to be. Anyways it’s upto Wikipedia to reckon with the truth, not some random wiki editor like NitinMlk.

Thanks for your reply ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.255.232.148 (talk)

The WP article about him is mostly unsourced and filled with unsourced WP:PUFFERY. There is a difference between being a popular author and a historian. You will have to show that he specialises in any branch of history. As of now, he is churning out books published by so-called "Singh brothers". - NitinMlk (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Professor Harjinder Singh Dilgeer is the “National Professor on Sikh History“. He has also remained director of the government body named Sikh history and Research Board. It’s enough to prove to any honest individual about Professor Dilgeer’s credentials for being an unparalleled authority on Sikh history and a paramount historian. If a scholar like him writes Baj Singh as Parmar, that holds some gravitas.

What about NitinMlk’s singular reference by a lilliputian author Hari Ram Gupta, who wasn’t even a Sikh and wrote a solitary book on Sikh history. Surprisingly a Hari Ram Gupta holds more authority as per a random user NitinMlk, than National Professor on Sikh History Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, who wrote 60+ books on Sikh history. It’s baffling.

Hope the pedantic edits will be restored.

Thanks for your reply!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.255.232.148 (talk)

Dilgeer was employed by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, which manages worship places of Sikhs. According to our poorly sourced article and some of its mirrors, he was apparently given the title of "National Professor of Sikh History" by someone. Can you tell me who gave this title to him & what was its purpose? The WP article shows that his post-graduation subjects were English, Punjabi, and philosophy. He worked as a journalist. He was also an English lecturer for some time and started his writing career with poetry and fiction. But none of this makes him a Sikh history scholar.

As far as his Punjabi books of Singh Brothers are concerned, if the content added by you at multiple articles is supported by his sources then those are the case of WP:FRINGE. With this edit, you reinstated the claim that he had a brother named Bhagwant Singh Bangeshwar who apparently ruled a state in the present-day Pakhtunkhwa, Pakistan. Now that biography of Bangeshwar was created by the same User (Sandeep7422) and it is solely supported by a Dilgeer's book. I tried to search about that person, but couldn't find even any passing mention. So this Bangeshwar seems to be a figment of Dilgeer's imagination.

As far as Dr. Hari Ram Gupta is concerned, he was a historian who specialised in Sikh history. He served as head of the history department at Panjab University and authored books on Sikh history all along his career. In fact, all the scholarly sources that I can locate have the same details about the subject of this article. If there was a discrepancy then at least some scholarly sources would've mentioned that. Here are a few scholarly/academic sources:

Deol, Gurdev Singh (2002). "BĀJ SINGH". In Singh, Harbans (ed.). The Encyclopaedia of Sikhism: Volume I: A–D (4th ed.). Punjabi University. pp. 258–259. ISBN 978-81-7380-100-6. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

BĀJ SIṄGH (d. 1716), a Bal Jaṭṭ, was a native of Mīrpur Paṭṭī, a village in Amritsar district of the Punjab. A devoted Sikh, Bāj Siṅgh had received the rites of initiation at the hands of Guru Gobind Siṅgh himself. He accompanied the Gurū to the Deccan in 1708 and was one of the five Sikhs sent by him to the Punjab with Bandā Siṅgh Bahādur. He took part in all of Bandā Siṅgh's major campaigns. For his fearlessness in battle, he came to be known as Bāj Bahādur (bahādur, lit. brave). In the battle of Sirhind fought at Chappar Chiŗī in May 1710, Bāj Siṅgh was in command of the right wing of Bandā Siṅgh's army. He faced Nawāb Wazīr Khān in the battle striking his horse down with a lance. As the battle was won, Bāj Siṅgh was named administrator of the town. Bāj Siṅgh was captured at Gurdās-Naṅgal in December 1715 and taken to Delhi where he was executed in June 1716 along with Bandā Siṅgh and his other companions.

Prasad, Jagdish (1983). Yadav, K. C. (ed.). "The administration of Haryana under Banda Bahadur". Journal of Haryana Studies. 15 (1 & 2). Kurukshetra University: 56–57. ISSN 0454-9201.

Banda appointed his own men to administer the parganas under him. To begin with, he appointed Baj Singh and others called Nazims who 'gave orders to the Imperial officials and managers of Jagir's calling upon them to submit to him and to relinquish their posts.' The author of the 'Prachin Pantha Prakasha' writes that Baj Singh, a Bal Jat of Mirpur Patti (Bari Doab) was appointed governor of Sirhind or Sarkar of Sirhind and Ali Singh, a resident of Salaudi near Sirhind was made his deputy.⁸ In addition to governorship of Sirhind the post of diwan was also assigned to Baj Singh.⁹

Gupta, Hari Ram (2007) [1995]. History of the Sikhs. Vol. IV: The Sikh Commonwealth or Rise and Fall of Sikh Misls. Munshiram Manoharlal. p. 6. ISBN 978-81-215-0165-1.

Baj Singh was a Bal Jat of village Mirpur in Parganah Patti¹ of Amritsar district. He received baptism from Guru Gobind Singh. He accompanied him to the Deccan. He was one of five members of Banda's advisory council. He commanded a contingent of troops under Banda at Samana and Sadhaura. In the battle of Sarhind he faced Suchanand, chief secretary of Wazir Khan, governor of Sarhind. Suchanand was defeated and he fled away.
Footnote:
¹The town of Patti is situated 64 kms south-east of Lahore on the road leading to Hari Ke Patan, the confluence of rivers Beas and Sat]uj. This parganah contained 1360 villages.

Few more sources

Narang, Gokul Chand (1972). Glorious History of Sikhism: From the Times and Teachings of Guru Nanak to the Death of Maharaja Ranjit Singh (6th ed.). New Book Society of India. p. 141. OCLC 644525377.

Baj Singh, a jat of Ball caste and a native of Mir Pur Patti in Amritsar district, was a disciple of Govind Singh whom he had accompanied to the Deccan. He was one of those sent by Govind as advisers with Banda. He accompanied Banda throughout his wars with his brothers Ram Singh, Sham Singh and Kuber Singh and lastly he was one of those who suffered martyrdom with Banda at Delhi in 1716 A. D. His name is mentioned by Muhammad Qasim as Baz Singh. See Ibrat Nama f. 29. In Tarikh-i-Muhammad Shahi he is called Bakht Singh.

Seetal, Sohan Singh (1971). Rise of the Sikh power and Maharaja Ranjeet Singh. Dhanpat Rai. p. 55. OCLC 6917931.

Banda Singh had appointed Sardar Baj Singh of Mirpur Patti, a Ball Jatt, as the Governor of Sirhind and Aali Singh as his deputy. He raised Sardar Fateh Singh of Bhaika to the status of a Governor and appointed him the Commander in Samana. Ram Singh, a brother of Baj Singh, was made the Executive Controller of Thaneswar and Binod Singh his assistant. Baj Singh, Ram Singh, Koer Singh and Sham Singh were all the four brothers.** Sham Singh worked under Baj Singh and Koer Singh was made a body-guard of Baba Banda Singh.

Singh, Raj Pal (2003). The Sikhs: Their Journey of Five Hundred Years. Bhavana Books & Prints. p. 49. ISBN 978-81-86505-46-5.

After the victory, Banda Bahadur appointed Baj Singh, a Bal clan Jat and commander of Majha Sikhs, as the faujdar of Sirhind with Ali Singh, the leader of Malwa Sikhs as his deputy. Fateh Singh, who had killed Wazir Khan, was confirmed in his post of faujdar of Samana. Ram Singh (a brother of Baj Singh) and Baba Binod Singh were jointly entrusted the responsibility of administering Thaneswar. All the faujdars of 28 recently conquered paraganas were replaced by the men owing allegiance to Banda Bahadur.

So all the present and past books that I could locate are consistent with each other and there is not even a passing mention of Bangash, Puar Rajput, Bangeshwar, Multan, royal family, etc. In fact, the details you want to include have other fringe theories as well, but I will discuss them after searching again for sources about the subject. In the meantime, please carefully read the sources provided by me and it would be very helpful if you could provide a scholarly source which supports the details of Bangash, royalty, Multan, etc. BTW, I normally edit at this time, but I will leave a message on your talk page after commenting here. I will comment here in a day or two after searching again about the subject. Thanks for being patient. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've semi-protected the article. 27.255.232.148, you can use the talk page to suggest your edits along with reliable sources. If you have questions about reliability, you can ask at WP:RSN. Rest assured that, if your edits are reliably sourced, they will be added but, if they are not, they won't. --RegentsPark (comment) 21:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Early Life[edit]

He descended from the royal house of Malwa kingdom which on fall of Malwa established principalities in Punjab . 2405:204:3228:709D:0:0:1567:F8AD (talk) 12:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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