Talk:Babalon

Egregore Theory

A form of Egregore theory that assumes the existence of Vril would indeed explain all of Crowley's remarks about the Gods, IIRC. But when did he actually endorse that theory or use the word egregore? For the purpose of this article, we can't safely assume that he meant every word he wrote about Gods. Dan 07:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Material that needs much work or elimination

This is from the article as of April 25, 2006. I am not necessarily trying to delete it...it is either original research that needs to be made encyclopedic, or it is unreferenced, and needs a LOT of tightening up. –Frater5 (talk/con) 17:55 05/10/2024

== The Evening Star ==

The Magical origins of Babalon are to be found in the Ancient Mystery Religions centered on the Babylonian Ishtar and the Roman/Greek Venus. Like all modern studies on Ancient Religion much knowledge concerning the Ishtaric Religion is based upon speculation though it is widely accepted within both the Occult underworld and Academic community that the Ishtar cult was serviced by a Priesthood including both Priests and Priestesses. The practices of the Priesthood are believed to have included ritual Prostitution and Homosexuality as Religious Sacrements leading to union with the Divine, practices comparable in essence to Tantric Magic. The Characteristics of Ishtar are almost identical with those of Babalon with the emphasis of both being on the mysteries of Death and Sex. Similarities are the exceptional Violence found with both Ishtar as being the Goddess of War and Violence and Babalon as being "Drunk on the Blood of the Saints", as well as both having a notable reputation for Lust. King Nebuchadrezzar II built a great gate dedicated to Ishtar in the city of Babilu or Babylon, meaning "gate of god".

The Second Goddess which reveal the roots of Babalon albeit to a lesser extent is the Roman/Greek Venus Goddess of Love, Sex and Beauty. Venus otherwise known as the Evening Star as often been associated with Ishtar indeed a continent on Venus is named Ishtar Terra by astronomers today. In her capacity as the Evening Star Venus heralds the Darkness of Night comparable to the concept of Babalon (also known as the Lady of the Night) being the Slayer of the Soul and therefore the bringer of Death. In the same way, Venus was also labeled the Morning Star which heralds the Rising of the Sun comparable to Babalon as the Gateway of the "City of the Pyramids". Again the symbol of Venus being represented by the Seven rayed Star or the Septagram is shared by both Venus and Babalon though in different variations.

Original research

I removed the whole section on Ishtar, etc. as original research. You can't make correlations anew in Wikipedia, you will need to find a book(s) or article(s) that draws the conclusions you are making and cite the articles to include any such information... Sorry, I know it may be "common knowledge" in the occult arena, but it's not common knowledge to the average person and so needs citations. (saved below) -999 01:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Except for the part in parentheses, every word of this already appears on Wikipedia! For the city's association with Ishtar, see Ishtar Gate. I do want to state that connection explicitly, though. Dan 08:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Babylon and Ishtar

Main articles: Babylon and Ishtar

Perhaps the obvious origin is the ancient city of Babylon, a major metropolis in Mesopotamia (modern Al Hillah in Iraq). Babylon is the Greek variant of Akkadian Babilu (bāb-ilû), meaning "Gateway of the god". It was the "holy city" of Babylonia from around 2300 BC, and the seat of the Neo-Babylonian empire from 612 BC. In the Old Testament, the name appears as בבל (Babel), interpreted by Genesis 11:9 to mean "confusion", from the verb balal, "to confuse".

One of the goddesses associated with Babylonia was Ishtar, who bears an uncanny resemblance to Babalon. She is the Akkadian counterpart to the Sumerian Inanna and to the cognate northwest Semitic goddess Astarte. The Greeks associated her with Venus and Aphrodite. Ishtar was worshipped as a goddess of fertility and sexuality, but also of war and the guardian of prostitutes (depending on the time period).

MadVoo (talk) 23:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC) Yes, there is a link between Babylon and Ishtar. How does this fit into Aleister Crowley, the mentally ill pervert with a god complex? Blanket statements like "this is common knowledge in occult circles but . . . ." is not an acceptable stance to have for an encyclopedia article. Lots of people believing something does not constitute a credible source. This article, overall, fawning, and needs to be overhauled. In the first line of the article it reads "mystical system." My second cousin is schizophrenic and in his delusions feels that he is some sort of a messiah of physics, though he never completed freshman year of high school; he strings as many science sounding words together and no none can argue with him. Should we call his incoherence a "mystical system?" The first line here should read "mythical system." And finally, the work of Crowley that pertains to the Thelema was ripped off from the Hellfire Club. Look up "Hellfire Club." ~MadVoo

"mentally ill pervert with a god complex" is hardly an acceptable stance to have for an encyclopedia either. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 11:24, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

23:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Binah and anonymous edits

The modern manifestation of Babalon in occult work is to build a link with her to allow the occultist to navigate the Abyss with out destroying themselves. The Beast and The Whore allow safe transit in the void but you need to be aligned with that particular magickal current. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.23.92 (talk • contribs).

Moved from article: The Gateway term is highly disputed, This is more in line the the Golden Dawn correspondence of Binah , where human consciousness cant dwell. With regard to the great mother label this is NOT a thelemic correspondence. While Crowley in Liber 418 does call her "more than merely Binah," the book introduces Babalon as Binah or the City of the Pyramids. (For those who care, it also links her with the path of Daleth.) You would need excellent citations to dispute this, and in any case we'd still want the article to point out that Crowley endorsed it. Dan 22:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Another problem is the issue of using Golden Dawn magickal correspondences to "label" and tag Babalon. No Golden Dawn adept worked with Babalon. Only when crowley left the Golden Dawn order did he begin to work with Babalon using rituals he created himself. Not Golden Dawn rituals or correspondences. When worked on a magickal level Babalon doesent folow the rules or labels given to her by humanity.

Getting this article up to better status

I've started cleaning this up since it seems to have languished recently. One thing I'd like to do is get rid of the Joel Birocco reference, it seems rather extraneous. Will also check with O.T.O. about copyright status of that Tarot card image.--Rodneyorpheus (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Scarlet Woman

(Note: cross-posting to Talk:Babalon, Talk:Whore of Babylon, Talk:Prostitution)

At present the term "Scarlet woman" has three possible articles:

Scarlet woman is a redirect to Prostitution

Scarlet Woman is a redirect to Whore of Babylon

Babalon opens with Babalon — also known as The Scarlet Woman...

I would propose that both Scarlet woman and Scarlet woman be directed to a page giving links to each of the above articles. If there is no objection I will create the disambiguation page and change the redirects accordingly - does 48 hours seem like a reasonable interval? ElijahOmega (talk) 12:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that makes a lot of sense --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 16:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)