Talk:Arouca, Portugal

Extinctions

The districts were extint, in Portugal (2012). So don't put the notion that Arouca belongs to the Disctrict of Aveiro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.218.231 (talk) 09:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Please, give us a clear link to any official document stating that the Distritos were extinct in Portugal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.252.209 (talk) 22:47, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia PT, which may or may not be reliable states: A extinção dos distritos em Portugal continental está prevista na Constituição portuguesa, que estabelece, no artigo 291.º que “enquanto as regiões administrativas não estiverem concretamente instituídas, subsistirá a divisão distrital no espaço por elas não abrangido” e na lei-quadro das regiões administrativas (Lei 56/91), que diz, no seu artigo 47.º, que “Após a nomeação do governador civil regional serão extintos os governos civis sediados na área da respectiva região”.

This does not represent a clear definition of the extinction of districts. No clear date was established, nor have all district functions been subserved by the creation of the administrative regions, or autonomous regions. Regardless, the use of the "districts" in all Portuguese Wikipedia articles was born, from early editors, as a way identifying the locations, insofar as the districts was one of the longest-running territorial divisions of continental Portugal. I believe that removing this nugget of information, is unwise, as many of the social institutions continue to use this reference and/or territorial division for administrative and/or statistical purposes. ^{ruben jc} ZEORYMER (talk) 19:37, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

People from Arouca don't have any type of relation to Aveiro, because the district was created in a arbitrary way. The identity of Arouca is in Porto Metropolitan Area. In reality, the districts were extint, in Portugal (2013). So don't put the notion that Arouca belongs to the Disctrict of Aveiro. See, here, a clear link to official documents stating that the Distritos were extinct in Portugal: http://www.pgdlisboa.pt/leis/lei_mostra_articulado.php?nid=1990&tabela=leis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.218.73 (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

With all due deference, the document you referred me to on the "extinction" of the districts never states that they were abolished. In fact, the document never uses the term "district" (or its variants). In fact, the document is cited by the "Procudaria-Geral Distrital de Lisboa", further enhancing my point about the form that the districts continue to take on: as much as they are not quasi-political, they are used as a "de jure" socio-administrative territorial unit by organizations within Portugal (ie. football associations, school systems, etc.). If you refer to article 3 about "revoking laws", then your statement is not necessarily a "clear link". ^{ruben jc} ZEORYMER (talk) 00:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned before, the territory of Arouca does not fit in the territory of the district of Aveiro. The Civilian Governments of the districts were extinct and, in practice, the districts are extinct. You must refer only the metropolitan areas or communities-cities of belonging, in addition to the regions. Aveiro is a considerable distance from the village of Arouca, about 74 km by road. The arouquenses never expressed or express any sense of belonging or of affinity about Aveiro, which is a town of the 'Região do Centro', of 'Comunidade Intermunicipal da Região de Aveiro', of 'Sub-Região do Baixo Voga' and of 'Beira Litoral', that has very distinct identity of the elements of Arouca municipality, which is a municipality of the 'Região Norte (Portugal)', of 'Área Metropolitana do Porto', of 'Sub-Região de Entre-Douro-e-Vouga' and of 'Douro Litoral', whose capital is the city of Porto. Therefore, in this article, should not be made of any relationship descriptions of Arouca about Aveiro, since these relationships, in fact, in practice, in fact, do not exist and never existed. And the information referred to on the origin of cultures and who have configured Arouca and the arouquenses are outdated. Are part of the traditional Historiography, obsolete, wrong, mytical, not scientific, that existed in Portugal. The cultural matrix of Arouca is Phoenician/Punic and ancient Hebrew. Then, there is only one Roman influence as invading culture exogenous, but who never managed to impose on the local culture. The toponymy of Arouca is ALL Phoenician/Punic origin and ancient Hebrew. The latest investigations in serious, scientific, Portugal, demonstrate this fact. See, please, here: http://fernando-outroladodahistoria.blogspot.pt/

To the unknow editor who persists on reverting content: sign your posts. Second, provide valid sources and citations for your commentaries. Unreferenced blogs are not valid sources, unless supported by third-party citations. Next: even PT Wikipedia continues to provide ALL parishes and municipalities with their former district affiliations, whether they be locally acceptable or not. It seems obvious that you have attempted the same with little influence on the PT talkpages: there might be a reason for that. I advise you that attempting to tamper with that information is going to create more of a problem there, then it does with me. This is not a game of personal affinities. Also, you cited a document (above) that was falsely claimed as a clear link to the extinction of the district system, which it wasn't. Your arguments are appearing to be POV and not supported by credible resources. I suggest you provide literary references to support your claims. ^{ruben jc} ZEORYMER (talk) 12:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry. But you are ignorant on this subject. Any common citizen of Arouca or of the Porto metropolitan area know that Arouca has no socio-economic relations relevant with Aveiro. Is an elementary notion. The «real capital» of Arouca is Porto, as always, by identity reasons and by the fact that is near Arouca. In addition, the Portuguese Constitution provides the extinction of the districts, because they were created in a arbitrary way. In relation to the History of Arouca which you cite, is, simply, wrong: all notions and elements. Are the repetition of the serious errors of the obsolete studies of the ancient Portuguese universities, which were of very poor quality, because, in Portugal, only started to make scientific History in the eighties of the 20th century. And Calvary, in Arouca, is not a element of the christian heritage, but the roman-catholic heritage. I think you must be more precise and scientific in your therms.

First, do not use words like "ignorant" if you do not know to whom you are speaking. Second, you are arguing points in English Wikipedia whereby you have lost in PT. I note that there seems to be a lack of knowledge here as to the rules of the game on Wikipedia. Your consistent reverts, without providing verifiable citations and references is at play. I can cite the Carta Administrativa Oficial de Portugal as reference to the historical geographic definitions of the Portuguese State. As much as those studies you cite are "obsolete", it does not diminish the fact that Arouca was part of that district: affinities (socio-economic or personal) aside, the Green Paper on local administration although prevising the reorganization of the national territory did not "expunge", "delete" or "abolish" historical territorial divisions. Finally, and MOST egregious: the Roman Catholic faith, much like the Protestant denominations of the world are considered, along with the Baptists, the Mormons and any faith that uses Jesus Christ as its spiritual foundation a "Christian" faith. Therefore, there can be no qualification, especially since the "Roman Catholic" definition was established within the modern distinction of this faith. Those archaeological/historical "Aliminhas" never pre-supposed a "Roman Catholic" faith, but a "Christian" faith. ^{ruben jc} ZEORYMER (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

And you too don't know who you're talking to. I'm a academic researcher for about 22 years, in Portugal. I even made my master's thesis about Arouca. I'm familiar with the field. I did not write anything on the portuguese Wikipedia: was another person. But I copy some of the right assertions about Arouca, because the position in the portuguese Wikipedia is correct: Arouca has nothing to do with Aveiro. The native elements of Arouca do not fall in the native elements of Aveiro. The districts were created in arbitrary mode. Porto has always been the «real capital» of arouquenses. This is a elementar notion that all people know in Arouca. In relation to Roman Catholicism, you manifest too enough ignorance on the subject. Sorry for my sincerity. Roman Catholicism is a fusion of natural religions, popular, pré catholic, with some elements of the values of Jesus of Nazareth (few). The Roman Empire appropriated these cults and rituals, popular symbols, giving to him some elements of the so-called «jewish-christian» tradition, that is a imprecise notion. But the faith of the people is the popular faith, with a forced Christian elements (few). So, sorry but you ignore Arouca. This is my conclusion.

And the present position of the portuguese Wikipedia about Arouca is the clear and scientific true: "Aveiro is a considerable distance from the village of Arouca, about 74 km by road. The arouquenses never expressed or express any sense of belonging or of affinity about Aveiro, which is a town of the 'Região do Centro', of 'Comunidade Intermunicipal da Região de Aveiro', of 'Sub-Região do Baixo Voga' and of 'Beira Litoral', that has very distinct identity of the elements of Arouca municipality, which is a municipality of the 'Região Norte (Portugal)', of 'Área Metropolitana do Porto', of 'Sub-Região de Entre-Douro-e-Vouga' and of 'Douro Litoral', whose capital is the city of Porto. Therefore, in this article, should not be made of any relationship descriptions of Arouca about Aveiro, since these relationships, in fact, in practice, in fact, do not exist and never existed." This is the clear scientific true. I think you must visit Arouca and ask to the people from Arouca where is there «real capital». The answer is one: PORTO.

As an "academic researcher" you of all people should know the value of "verifiable, third-party sources" (there are rules about self-published works), especially in Wikipedia since it is the norm. By all means, I invite you to publish, alter and manifest your edits, as long as you present citable resources. I chose to use content from two verifiable bodies the municipal authority and the national government. My colleagues who have edited geographic information in the past have also used CAOP, national government and local sources: to use the comment that "all people know in Arouca" is misleading, since they may feel part of Porto, but legally they were part of Aveiro. To state that it is "scientifical[ly] true" begs the question: where are your scientific truths? Your comments, contrary to this, seem to go against the policy of WP:NPOV. Please, edit Arouca, but be prepared for debate, if you make claims that are unjustifiable. Once again, I invite you to adhere to the etiquette at Wikipedia and sign your posts: your IP address can be blocked by administrators, even if you are not a registered editor. Oh, I will keep my tone professional and civilized in the future. One other thing: Christianty, as spelled-out in the Wikipedia article, makes it clear: all denominations who base their spiritual texts on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are by definition "Christian". ^{ruben jc} ZEORYMER (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you see?!!! The only element in common between Arouca and Aveiro is only the fact that belong to the same district, that is not a relevant administrative region in the present, in Portugal. The region, the sub-region, the ancient province are different. I repeat: Aveiro is a city of the 'Região do Centro', of 'Comunidade Intermunicipal da Região de Aveiro', of 'Sub-Região do Baixo Voga' and of 'Beira Litoral', that has very distinct identity of the elements of Arouca municipality, which is a municipality of the 'Região Norte (Portugal)', of 'Área Metropolitana do Porto', of 'Sub-Região de Entre-Douro-e-Vouga' and of 'Douro Litoral', whose capital is the city of PORTO. Porto is and was always the real capital of Arouca and of the inhabitants of Arouca. Only that. Can you see?!!! This is the greographic and etnological true. The portuguese Wikipedia say the true, where I never writted: I just copy those elements. This is the true.

More and more, I am starting to believe that the user debating me on this subject is the one and the same from Wikipedia PT. The types of arguments being expressed are identical to those on PT, including the choices of examples. To subvert the community by using non-consensus claims from PT is disingenuous. If this user was, in fact, debating content, he would provide verifiable resources and not merely repeat unproven arguments. As much as the districts were created in the past, unscientifically and without the acceptance of its local peoples, they were created in the format indicated. Arouca WAS/is part of the district of Aveiro and continues to be referred to, as such in the official CAOP, this includes all its constituent parishes. The debate that is perpetuated is whether the peoples have a kinship with Porto: that they might. But, it does not make that municipality not a part of the district of Aveiro; as of the 2013 CAOP, Arouca is a municipality of the district of Aveiro, NUTS3 Vouga and NUTS2 Norte region. No matter what personal feelings or ethnographic realities might exist to the contrary. ^{ruben jc} ZEORYMER (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I did not write anything on Wikipedia pt. I just copied, from there, some notions about Arouca. Of course, the scientific truth about a phenomenon is objective. Doesn't change. Therefore, when it expresses the scientific truth about a specific phenomenon, persons repeats this truth, in a regular way. Even it has been studied by another person. Science is not opinion. The scientific, sociological studies, shows the ancient and modern connection of Arouca to Porto, which is the real capital of Arouca. See, for example, the sociological study of Professor António Teixeira Fernandes https://sites.google.com/site/estrategiascriativas/editora/autores/antonio-teixeira-fernandes and his sociological team of the University of Porto, one of the most important social portuguese scientists and Professor of the University of Porto, that is the best portuguese university, where he shows, in a scientific way, the deep socio-economic relation of Arouca to Porto and the week and few relation to the district of Aveiro. In the page 63 of the study Memória e Identidade em Comunidade Autárquica (Memory and Identity in a Municipal Community), Instituto de Sociologia (Institute of Sociology)/ Câmara Municipal de Arouca, 2002. http://isociologia.pt/App_Files/Documents/teixeirafernandes09_110907043802.pdf So, I repeat: Can you see?!!! The only element in common between Arouca and Aveiro is only the fact that belong to the same district, that is not a relevant administrative region in the present, in Portugal. The region, the sub-region, the ancient province are different. I repeat: Aveiro is a city of the 'Região do Centro', of 'Comunidade Intermunicipal da Região de Aveiro', of 'Sub-Região do Baixo Voga' and of 'Beira Litoral', that has very distinct identity of the elements of Arouca municipality, which is a municipality of the 'Região Norte (Portugal)', of 'Área Metropolitana do Porto', of 'Sub-Região de Entre-Douro-e-Vouga' and of 'Douro Litoral', whose capital is the city of PORTO. See this recent sociological study, that is impartial, objective, scientific. Is not like the mytical and wrong elements of old and mytical portuguese Historiografy that you put in this article about Arouca that are wrong and obsolete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.4.167 (talk) 18:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

See, please: http://www.amp.pt/gca/index.php?id=121 And most of all: Arouca belongs to the Metropolitan Area of Porto. More than anything. At present, in Portugal, the living and functional administrative regions are the metropolitan areas (Lisbon and Porto) and the inter-municipal communities. Aveiro belongs to the "Intermunicipal Community of Aveiro" and not to the Metropolitan Area of Porto. If Aveiro were in the same territory identity of Arouca, was also in the Metropolitan Area of Porto. Conclusion: the districts in Portugal, at present, have no relevance or administrative functions. The Government of Portugal extinguished Civil Government, forever. Like you could read in Wikipedia pt: "Dando continuidade à reorganização administrativa, na actualidade, verifica-se o forte aumento de importância das Áreas Metropolitanas e Comunidades Intermunicipais em detrimento dos distritos. De acordo com a lei nº 45/2008 de 27 de Agosto, das áreas metropolitanas, criadas em 2003, só subsistiram as chamadas clássicas: a Área Metropolitana do Porto e a Área Metropolitana de Lisboa, sendo as restantes reorganizadas em Comunidades Intermunicipais. A razão óbvia para esta situação, para além de razões de associação económica e administrativa, tem a ver com o facto das populações não se identificarem com o distrito a que foram sujeitos, como acontece, a título de exemplo paradigmático, com os municípios de Espinho, Santa Maria da Feira, São João da Madeira, Oliveira de Azeméis, Vale de Cambra e Arouca, municípios da Área Metropolitana do Porto, que, apesar de pertencerem ao Distrito de Aveiro, sempre tiveram uma forte ligação socio-económica ao espaço urbano do Porto, para além da proximidade territorial à cidade do Porto e do seu enquadramento identitário nos municípios do Distrito do Porto, factos que se acentuaram na contemporaneidade. Com a lei 75/2013 de 12 de Setembro, dando continuidade à reorganização administrativa e à restruturação de competências na organização do território, os distritos foram relegados para um plano secundário, com o protagonismo administrativo das Áreas Metropolitanas e das Comunidades Intermunicipais." http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distrito_do_Porto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.4.167 (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

the new (2015) NUT III of Arouca is Metropolitan Area of Porto. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/nuts/overview In reality, is a natural process of the insertion of Arouca in is «real natural capital»: the city of Porto.