Talk:Armita Abbasi

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On 1 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Arrest of Armita Abbasi. The result of the discussion was not moved.

BLP issues[edit]

We should be very careful about reporting speculation about acts she may be subject to as fact and I have posted a notice to the WP:BLPN about this. CT55555(talk) 15:56, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are existing citations here that have confirmed sexual assault while detained, by CNN (as of November 2022), and she was subject of discussion by the United States Department of State, and politicians in Germany. While I understand your WP:BLP issues, I would not ignore the significant coverage of reliable sources. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 01:20, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do sources confirm the end of the sentence that starts...."In the hospital..." CT55555(talk) 01:23, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your question but your welcome to explore the 21 current citations. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 01:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry that you're missing my point. I'm deliberately avoiding repeating what is in the article because the sentence that starts "In the hospital...." includes a very graphic detail that is not supported by the Metro citation. The article states that something happened. The citation says that something is suspected. Claims in the article should be supported by the citation that follows them.

This is not me ignoring significant coverage, this is me pointing out that an important detail in the article is not supported by the citation. CT55555(talk) 02:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying. I don’t know about the Metro article (as I didn't add that source, or that sentence). The CNN article (the investigative report dated November 2022, which has a warning disclaimer), the Iran International article, and some of the other citations do mention graphic sexual assault details, including evidence of the specifics of the assault and details on her physical damage. I don’t remember at the moment, but most likely it was worded differently than this WP sentence that you have mention. I can understand why that might be confusing for other editors, given the landscape of news. I agree, we probably don't need this level of detail here per WP:BLP. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 03:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I attempted to modify that sentence to be less specific. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 04:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. CT55555(talk) 14:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 January 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 18:46, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Armita Abbasi → Arrest of Armita Abbasi – Per WP:BLP1E this person cannot be a biographical topic. The article must focus on the event(s). Elizium23 (talk) 12:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This article is again up at AfD, perhaps we should wait to see how that plays out. 162 etc. (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree to let the AFD play out. She is notable for more than being arrested. She is also known for protesting and for allegedly being the victim of torture. I would say therefore that the proposed name is not ideal and that actually she is known for more than one event. CT55555(talk) 14:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with CT55555, she is more known for an abduction from the hospital and a brutal sexual assault by Iranian security forces, therefore "arrest" seems like the wrong term. But I don’t know exactly what the correct term for the title would be either. I don’t think WP:BLP1E applies here, since her reach was beyond one event and one time. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 04:55, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with CT55555. She is notable for being a victim of sexual assault by the security forces. Although there are many reports of sexual assault by the Iran's security forces, but she is only victim that her identity was known. Women-life-liberty-revolution (talk) 05:29, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: AfD just closed with a keep, with no discussion on the title of the article. Extending discussion time for a clearer consensus on the question of should the article to be moved, and if so, to what title. – robertsky (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Iran has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now that AFD has closed, I will clarity my comment above by saying oppose. As I said above, she is notable for being arrested/abducted twice, being tortured, and protesting. So more than one thing, therefore notable in the normal sense. CT55555(talk) 13:28, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: WP:BLP1E is not applicable, she isn’t known for her arrest. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 22:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removing the term "abducted", to replace with "arrested"[edit]

To clarify, when she was leaving the hospital she was abducted (or kidnapped), her family and contacts couldn't find her and she was assumed dead (even by some media). This change to "arrested" is problematic because none of the citations read that she was arrested again, and it is because she wasn't arrested a second time. I understand this was changed in the pursuit of "neutrality", however you are ignoring the citation and in doing so, also ignoring what makes this case notable. She is one of the many affected by a pattern of enforced disappearance. There is also concern by changing this, it falls into original research WP:OR. If we change the language to "allegedly abducted", perhaps that would fulfill neutrality better. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 22:47, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was me who made the change. Thanks for starting the conversation. When the state detains people, I think that the definition of arrest. I think it is clear from sources that the state has detained her, so it's not original research to call it an "arrest". Abduction, I think, is a crime, so is something we should be careful about saying. We should seek reliable sources on the use of that word. Also we need to consider if it is possible to call it an abduction if the state did it.

Regarding the sources that support the sentence about her being "abducted" from the hospital, they are:

Jinha Women's News Agency, which states: "she was taken to a prison after having been taken from hospital" so it avoids naming the detention.
Feminine-Perspective Magazine, which states calls the act a "kidnapping", which is akin to abduction, but this is not exactly a high quality news source
Mediapart seems like a reliable source to me, sadly, the article is behind a paywall.
Young Bengali website, translated by google, says "Armita Abbasi's mother has complained that her daughter was abducted" but her mother's accusations of it being an abduction are not neutral, so I don't think we can rely on that.
Iran International doesn't describe her being taken from the hospital.

So I think we can justify saying "arrest" but I edited out "abduction" because I think that requires a higher bar of references and I don't think we've met them. And while I assume that most of us here are horrified by her detention and treatment, I think we must be really careful about how we describe what happened. CT55555(talk) 23:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The original comment was changed as I was writing my reply. Allegedly abducted seems supported by sources and seems more agreeable to me. CT55555(talk) 23:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Armita Abbasi.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:37, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

False. Never Raped or Tortured[edit]

On November 21, 2022, CNN published a detailed report on Iran’s security forces “using rape to quell protests”. The lead protagonist of the story was 20-year-old Armita Abbasi.

During the search of Abbasi’s home, bottles of gasoline, Molotov cocktails and lighters were discovered, the report stated, after which she was arrested and sent to a detention center.

Responding to social media rumors about her “custodial torture and rape”, the prosecutor said Abbasi had “digestive problems” related to her past history of hemorrhoids due to which she had to be briefly admitted to a hospital and was discharged within 24 hours, during which time Abbasi’s mother took to Instagram on October 31, posting pictures of her “missing daughter”.

Her mother alleged that Abbasi was last seen in Imam Ali Hospital in Karaj when she was “kidnapped by the IRGC agents and taken to an unknown location in a semi-conscious state”. This is completely false. Abbasi was being moved and treated to and from hospital and her cell.

CNN contacted an ‘unknown source’ (an Iranian Dr outside of Iran) who stated that Abbasi had been raped and tortured. This was used as evidence from and ‘Unknown Source’.

Many media outlets in the West cited the CNN report to push the narrative that women’s rights are not respected in the Islamic Republic and that rape is used as a weapon to oppress women. 2A00:23C7:6098:CE01:8CEA:CE42:F39E:FFF1 (talk) 11:25, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are debating here the value of sources (like CNN) that have already determined as reliable sources (see WP:RS). The story you are pushing here is the same story the current Iranian government has been supporting and reporting in news - keeping in mind, no other international news is publishing this story besides the Iranian government. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 21:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]