Talk:Aquino, Italy

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Cleanup[edit]

There are typos and templates that aren't being used and comments within comments. Carlossuarez46 03:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 March 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved Aquino moved to Aquino, Italy; Aquino (disambiguation) to Aquino based on a finding of No Primary Topic for this name. Mike Cline (talk) 14:39, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Aquino → Aquino, Italy – Aquino better describes Corazon Aquino --Relisted. Andrewa (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC) Luvcookies (talk) 08:51, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • This list:

Family of Corazon Aquino

Related

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Luvcookies (talk • contribs) 09:51, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose per WP:TITLE and in particular WP:COMMONNAME: Aquino is fine where it is. Corazon Aquino has her own article under her full name, which is the common name and not going to change. Given the sheer number of Aquinos out there, I see no reason to change Aquino into a redirect to her; the hat note to the disambiguation page is sufficient. The dictionaries are not authoritative in this matter, and unpersuasive besides: Webster's lists both Corazon and Benigno III and gives a link to Encyclopedia Britannica, which mentions the Italian town only. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:28, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: As noted above, there are various notable Aquinos that are not the town. And the town does not appear to be an extremely notable place (e.g., do we have any reliable third-party sources that discuss the town in substantial detail per WP:GNG?). Unless there is evidence that the town is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Aquino" (and we don't seem to have any such evidence), Aquino should be moved to Aquino, Italy and Aquino (disambiguation) should be moved to Aquino. The important question here is not whether Corazon Aquino is primary, but whether the town is primary. The RM is about the town, not the person. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Aquino, Italy": will support only "Aquino, Latium", prefer retention of the existing undisambiguated name – I oppose county-based disambiguation, and only support region-based disambiguation. Regardless, I think that the existing set-up is fine. "Aquino" without any qualifiers undoubtedly refers to the place, and to nothing else. This article is not titled "Aquino family", or some such thing. If there really is an issue, a hatnote can be provided. There is no justification for adding more length to this article title. RGloucester — ☎ 01:32, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that Reagan redirects to Ronald Reagan, despite the fact that there are three towns and two counties (none of which seem to have been named after Ronald Reagan) and several other topics called "Reagan" that are listed at Reagan (disambiguation) (and Ronald Reagan did not really promote mononym usage like Madonna or Beyoncé). Thus I think it is not true that "'Aquino' without any qualifiers undoubtedly refers to the place." So I think the other topics for "Aquino" deserve having the dab page be at the base name rather than the town in this case. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that "Reagan" redirects to "Ronald Reagan" is evidence of systemic bias and idiocy, nothing more. That's not an example to view as a precedent. In fact, I imagine if I have time I will take it upon myself to fix the error. If people are not known as specifically and solely "Aquino", then they are cannot possibly be a target for the word "Aquino". The town is known specifically and solely as "Aquino". Regardless, a hat note, as I said, could solve any potential problems. There is no justification for a move. RGloucester — ☎ 04:21, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (in principle, I'm not sure about the Italy/Latium thing). Clearly a little town of 5k people or so is not that significant. There are lots and lots of things listed at Aquino (disambiguation), right? No primary topic here. Red Slash 04:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If one is talking about WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, one must reference the actual term. The only term up for discussion here is "Aquino" alone, with no appendages. "Aquino", with no appendages, only ever refers to the town. None of the stuff or people listed at that page is known solely by the word "Aquino". Unless one can find something with the exact name "Aquino", with no appendages, that we have an article on, there is no justification for adding length to the title. That's a pure canard, that bit about "no primary topic". RGloucester — ☎ 06:21, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the abstract, I agree with you; this is why Lincoln is a dab page and Charlotte takes you to the American city. I wrote WP:TPTM to support the claim you are behind here. But this is a very small town, and there are a whole lotta TPTM's. Red Slash 21:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I agree with Red Slash here. The current setup is misdirecting a significant amount traffic to a town most readers haven't even heard of. "In theory" we have our rules and the practical/technical side isn't our concern. But when 38 percent (440/1157) of readers are taking the hat note to the DAB, there is obviously a problem. The initializer (talk) 02:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support replace with the disambiguation page at the current location. The Filipino president is high profile in the English-speaking world. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If necessary, Corazon can be added to the hatnote. Srnec (talk) 22:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The Bing results are all over the map. (For some reason, Googling "Aquino -wikipedia" just gives you Instagram nonsense.) I'd say the current Filippino president is the most likely desired topic, edging out Corazon. Perhaps the disambiguation page should be primary. The initializer (talk) 12:36, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on the comments, that sounds like "support", not "oppose". The move request should only be opposed if we think the town is primary, and the move request needs to succeed in order to make the dab page primary. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The original proposal was to make Corazon primary, which I oppose. If the closer wants to make the DAB primary, I am fine with that. The initializer (talk) 02:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The proposal is to move Aquino → Aquino, Italy. That's it. The rest is just rationale, not part of the proposal being formally discussed. It's not a multi-page move request, so I think it is appropriate to support the proposal while also suggesting to make the dab page primary. That's what I did. As I said, "The RM is about the town, not the person." —BarrelProof (talk) 06:51, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: the original proposer, Luvcookies, has been indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:27, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is technically a case for nullifying this RM, and starting again in need, but in view of the support from users in good standing (including myself of course) I think we should invoke WP:SNOW and just discount the nomination as a vote. Interested in other views. Andrewa (talk) 00:25, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose obviously. 216.239.45.83 (talk) 21:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • And just as obviously, this non-contribution will count for very little. Others tempted to cast such non-votes, please don't waste your and our time and bandwidth. Andrewa (talk) 00:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. If there were a primary meaning in English, it would be Corazon Aquino both on likelihood of search and ongoing significance (the two criteria). But there is enough doubt to make the undisambiguated name the DAB. There is no case for making the town the primary meaning as at present. Andrewa (talk) 00:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative proposal or perhaps clarification[edit]

To clarify, I propose that we make this a multi-move and also move Aquino (disambiguation) to Aquino. That's what I assumed would happen in due course had the original proposal gone ahead, as while it's been claimed that Corazon Aquino is a better candidate than the town for primary meaning, no case has been made that there is any primary meaning at all. There seems some confusion on this above, but I think there is an underlying if rough consensus on this. Relisting to allow discussion along these lines. I have flagged Talk:Aquino (disambiguation) [1] to make this a legitimate multi-move. Andrewa (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Still Oppose, and I don't see any kind of consensus of support above. At best there's a split decision, which normally would mean no consensus and a failure of the move proposal. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:43, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Agree that this is the practice, and perhaps this also needs review. Surely if there is no consensus as to whether or not the town in the primary meaning, the default should be to assume that it's not? The onus of proof should be on establishing that there is a primary meaning, surely? Andrewa (talk) 22:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • On Wikipedia, it's the status quo ante unless a convincing case is made to change it such that a consensus for the change develops. So far, the case doesn't seem to have been made. Surely we shouldn't be changing standard methodology here? BlueMoonset (talk) 15:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • We would need to invoke WP:IAR, and if we were satisfied that the standard methodology was preventing us from improving Wikipedia, than we would be bound by the policy to ignore this standard methodology and improve Wikipedia anyway. That's what WP:IAR is for. Further down the line, we should then consider that ramifications of this new consensus on the rules we ignored. Andrewa (talk) 14:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The current setup steers readers to the Italian village, although this is not a likely desired destination compared to either NoyNoy or Corazon. See Bing or Yahoo. The initializer (talk) 05:20, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – for the same reasons as above. RGloucester — ☎ 06:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The primary meaning of "Aquino", and only "Aquino", is the town. This article is not titled "Aquino family" or "So and So Aquino". It is only titled "Aquino", and Aquino alone can only refer to one thing: the town. RGloucester — ☎ 00:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Aquino alone can only refer to one thing: the town... This may explain a lot, because it's just not true. I am often called Alder (my surname), most recently in he settlement process in which I am buying a property from Nolan and Osgood (their surnames), and any Aussie knows who Bradman was, most people know who Churchill was, etc etc etc. It's a very common way of referring to a person; In many contexts it is the normal way. Many Wikipedia surnames redirect to an article on a specific person, because that person is the primary meaning of the word. But I'm not saying that Cory Aquino is the primary meaning of Aquino, just that this is a possible meaning. That is normally the case with surnames, as the examples I've given all indicate (if an individual is the primary meaning, then a fortiori it is also a possible meaning). Have you any evidence to support Aquino being an exception to that pattern? Andrewa (talk) 13:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hear, hear. That doesn't mean the human Aquinos are primary, but I think it's pretty clear that the little town is not (as with the various towns named Reagan as well as with Einstein), so Aquino should be a dab page (or a redirect to a dab page). This is what I was already saying above, so I obviously Support the clarified proposal. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly. Another good example. Andrewa (talk) 14:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this alternative per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Just because there is no other article titled "Aquino" does not make the town primary. As User:Andrewa pointed out, the Aquinos of the Philippines are often simply called "Aquino" in sources. (cf. Merkel, Churchill). —  AjaxSmack  03:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence for that claim? Without qualification, no person is ever just called "Aquino". RGloucester — ☎ 21:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How about many of the instances here. Books like Aquino's Philippines, The Post-Aquino Philippines and The Philippines Under Aquino. They're not referring to a village of 5000 souls in Italy. —  AjaxSmack  03:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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