Talk:Anti-Russian sentiment/Archive 6

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Russophobic article about Russophobia

The article is Russophobic itself. It denies any prosecution of Russian minorities and existence of Russophobia. I hope it will be edited, if not it's a good reason to bring Wikipedia in court. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.165.173.131 (talk) 22:41, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


Phobia versus legitimate fear

As an example, Sweden was said to have a fear of Russia invading, citing the availability of compatible broad-gauge rail through Finland right to the Swedish border. Quite frankly, legitimate fears of invasion, legitimate fears of Russification policies (whether Tsarist or Soviet), low opinions of Russians, etc., do not automatically qualify as Russophobia. The lead offers a definition that any fear, legitimate or not, rational or not, against the state or against the ethnic group, qualifies as Russophobia. Let's please have someone provide scholarly sources for that contention. Absent of that, the only content appropriate for the article is whatever scholarly sources label "Russophobia"—in which case the specific fear(s) mentioned qualify. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

"The thorough Russification of Finland did not begin until the present century and it is profoundly significant that it coincided exactly with the close of the war with Japan. Thwarted in the attempt to reach open sea in the east, Russia turned her attention with renewed vigor to the west. Finland is now a country governed by Cossacks. Finnish judges have been thrown into prison for daring to uphold the constitution guaranteed their country by the Czar. Finnish money has built the broad gauged railway and heavy iron bridges that can carry troops if need be directly from Petrograd to Tornea on the Swedish border. Small wonder that fear of Russia is in the Swedish blood and that the Muscovite is used as a bogey to frighten children."

For example, we might wish to label this Russophobia; however, unless another source calls this period of time (Finland being actively Russified after the end of war with Japan in 1905) one where Sweden was beset by Russophobia (this passage is from 1914, SCANDINAVIA AND THE WAR BY HANNA ASTRUP LARSEN), this does not qualify. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 00:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I think since this is such a contentious topic, we ought to confine ourselves to sources that discuss "russophobia" as its main topic. See for example the book Russophobia in New Zealand, 1838-1908, clearly the remotely situated New Zealand's fear of Russian invasion was irrational, where as Finland certainly had a legitimate concern that cannot be described as "russophobia". --Nug (talk) 06:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
1838 coincides with the start of the first Afghan war, which fanned English fears of Russian designs on India. Not that a Russian naval base in India would be that much closer to spark fears of invasion of New Zealand, so I suspect this was sympathetic fear for the British Empire. (I haven't read the source, so this is a bit of surmising on my part.) PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 18:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
The Crimean War also contributed too. In Australia, Fort Denison was constructed to repel a possible Russian naval attack on Sydney. --Nug (talk) 18:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, the Crimean War was another one of those flash points between England and Russia. Of course, a naval attack would have been unlikely given—among other reasons—the Russian fleet lagged behind the competition in modernizing to steam power. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
"Legitimate fear" of any ethnicity is called racism. "Low opinions of Russians" are called racism. Manifestation and propaganda of such views is a crime in any country, in Estonia, Finland, Russia, Britain, you name it. This article deals with an "indiscriminate" fear, i.e. not just phobia of one man/ politician but fear of the nation and the ethnos as a whole. There can not be any "legitimate" fears of Arabs, Jews, Americans, Russians, Estonians, Finns etc. as a whole. This article in no way deals with Russification/ Polonization/ Ukrainization/ Communism, etc. It's about Russophobia, not anticommunism/ nationalism/ patriotism or whatever.FeelSunny (talk) 16:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Save the racist contentions. I'll have to find the source again that talks about "Russophobia" being resurrected, introduced into political dialogue, and manipulated by post-Soviet Russia itself and molded to be not a legitimate fear of Russian aggression and geopolitical ambitions, that is, of the Russian state, but painted out to be a virulent level of racism equivalent to anti-Semitism, just directed at Russians instead. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Repeating deletions of a sourced and relevant image

Peltimikko has tried deleting the picture from the article for four times by now: [1] [2] [3] [4].

At first, he/ she claimed the concentration camp picture/ section in general is irrelevant at all in the article about Russophobia. I quoted sources claiming Russiophobia was connected to the existence of concentration camps, and the ethnic policy of the Finnish government on the occupied territories. Then he/ she started to say the picture is "staged". It would be quite naive to think any of pictures of liberated prisoners of concentration camps could be made by the Nazi Germany or Finland in the end of the war. None was willing to picture their war crimes themselves, of course. That's why most of those pictures were made by the Allied forces liberating camps, at the time of liberation, or days later, while liberated prisoners were still in camps.

Auschwitz concentration camp liberated by the USSR: [5], [6]. Buchenwald camp liberated by the US: [7] [8] [9]. Bergen-Belsen concentration camp liberated by British: [10] [11]. Dachau concentration camp, liberated by the US: [12] [13].

None of these pictures is "staged". Where they picture prisoners, prisoners are right there where they stayed during the war. Where there are Jews, these Jews were not brought from somewhere, they were prisoners when liberated. Where there are children, these are also not brought from somewhere, they spent the war in the concentration camp.

So, Peltimikko, please stop deleting this image. It is a real depiction of the concentration camp prisoners, made in good faith, just like any other of the pictures above. FeelSunny (talk) 14:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Peltimikko, if you really are after "staged" pictures, take a look at this one: [14]. Children, well controlled by the Finnish guards and concentration camp authorities standing behind, all smile, posing to the Swiss correspondent. In my opinion, that's what people usually call "staged". FeelSunny (talk) 14:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Except the particular image Peltimikko removed that was taken by photographer/war correspondent Galina Sanko is known to have been staged. Kids playing on a street nearby abandoned, and empty, camp were requested by the photographer to pose behind the wires. [15] - image is quite telling as well. Should try to get actual reference to the article in question though. - Wanderer602 (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Any thoughts on any credible sources? So far I only can see a single post on a forum, giving no links to sources of information on "staged". Guys, get serious already.FeelSunny (talk) 09:16, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Sources saying the people on the photo are real: [16] У автора была возможность побеседовать с находящейся в правой части снимка, тогда 9-летней девочкой Клавдией Соболевой, сейчас имеющий высшее образование Клавдией Нюппиевой. О мерах наказания, применяемых финнами, Клавдия Нюппиева рассказывала прямо, без прикрас. Финны при детях расстреливали заключенных, назначали телесные наказания женщинам, детям и старикам, невзирая на возраст... - Author had a chance to speak to a girl pictured on the right side of the photo, then a 9-year old girl, Klavdia. Klavdia Nuppieva described finnish punishments to the camp prisoners straightforwards. Finns shot prisoners in the presence of children, they practiced corporal punishments to women, children and old people, notwithstanding their age... - you see those people were not "brought from the street", they were real inmates of the concentration camp, photographed in the cam right after it's liberation.FeelSunny (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Are all these people ethnic Russians? Is the word Russophobia used by any sources? Are all and every war crime a result of a phobia? What about persons of dozens of ethnic groups oppressed in the Gulag? This is going beyond ridiculous. - BorisG (talk) 13:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Are you referring to the people on the picture? If yes, there are multiple sources quoted in the section above that explicitly claim that the reasons why Finland created the Karelia concentration camps, one of them pictured, was that Finland was going to use local ethnically-wrong civilians for forced labour and resettle them, cleansing the occupied region of "non-relative peoples". Ethnic non-relative peoples were in their absolute majority ethnic Russians (9 of each 10 "non-relatives"). Sources are above and in the article section for each claim. I can not guarantee that all people pictured are ethnic Russians. What I can source is that they all got to trhe concentration camp because they were thought to be ethnic Russians by Finns.
For all other questions, answers are: "Is the word Russophobia used by any sources?" - yes, many use this exact word in relation to Finnish government's policy on the occupied territories. "Are all and every war crime a result of a phobia?" - no, if you see any such claim in the article, please feel free to delete. "What about persons of dozens of ethnic groups oppressed in the Gulag?" - What about them?
Overall, thanks for your participation, and if you think you have any sources that claim Finland was not Russophobic during the WWII, please add them. FeelSunny (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Should Soviet air bombings against Finnish civilians, Soviet partisan attacks against Finnish civilians and/or bad treatment and high mortality of Finnish POWs consider as "Finnophobia" of Russians? Where we draw the line? Peltimikko (talk) 16:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Peltimikko, if you have something to present us about the picture or Finnish policy on occupied territories, please do. Otherwise, let's save everybody's time and not just post random things. FeelSunny (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
In Sotilasaikakauslehti 11/2007, p. 44-45 there are descriptions of the background of the image by Galina Sanko. It notes that the image was already proven faked in 1970s though it was used for essentially propaganda purposes long after. For example Galina Sanko was supposed to accompany the advancing Soviet troops however she couldn't. She arrived only several days after. (quote, translated) "At Petroskoi (Petrozavodsk) the transfer camps were empty but Sanko did find a group of children playing on the street who she requested to pose next to the gate of one of the camps". Children on the image are real, and some of them (at least) even had been camp residents, however that does not change the fact that the image itself was staged. - Wanderer602 (talk) 06:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Russophobia or not the camps are not related to the topic. If you go by the book the Finns were within their limits to move people, part of whom were already refugees and part of whom lived next to the front lines, into camps. Same goes with anti-partisan action. None of which relates to Russophobia. - Wanderer602 (talk) 06:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
In other words, first the image has no relevance to the article in question and second it should be clearly noted (with cited reference) that it was staged propaganda photograph. - Wanderer602 (talk) 20:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
The concentration camp picture is a good illustration of Finnish Russophobia. If ethnic cleansing of Russians is not Russophobia, then I don't know what is. The picture is one of the best illustrations available for this article and should not be removed. Nanobear (talk) 16:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
How does an image depicting an ethnic cleansing that never took place (population transfers were never started) prove anything with regards to Russophobia? - Wanderer602 (talk) 06:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It is questionable if those camps can be used to present Finnish Russophobia. Before the WWI the inhabitation of the area was over 90% Karelian/Finnish, but the building of Murmansk railroad lead to the influx of Russian population, railway builders, operators etc. After the revolution SU promised autonomy to Karelia, but already 1920 solely Russian inhabited eastern shores of Lake Onega was incorporated to the autonomous region. The railroad opened opportunies for industrialization, and the autonomous region suffered chronic lack of skilled workers, but contrary to the wishes of local government, Moscow sent almost only Russians to the region. On top of this, during the purges, Karelians and Finns were more heavily hit than Russians: Karelian ASSR lost 95% of it's Finnish population during the purges! These actions were not unknown in Finland, as many Finns had relatives in Russian Karelia and many leaders of the failed Finnish revolution had fled and settled to Karelian ASSR.

It was initially thought that the Russian population was settled to Karelian ASSR only to Russify the area, and that their removal back to Russia is justified. That thought soon collapsed when it was found (as also noted above), that there wasn't such a clean way to separate the people, so after the initial rush to create the camps - as Wanderer noticed, there were some people who had to be put to the camps (refugees and those living close to front lines, especially from the Svir valley and the vulnerable northern shores of Lake Onega) - there was a halt and then a gradual reduction of the number of internees. --Whiskey (talk) 08:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Whiskey, these camps were built to resettle ethnic Russians to some other area, outside of the future "Great Finland".
And it was not a case of some citizenship issue, not just forcing "illegal immigrants" out. No source claims Finns thought these people were "illegally brought into Finland" - because no source ever claimed that Petrozavodsk, Ladoga region and many other parts of Karelia where those people settled did not belong to Russia. That's why it's really difficult to claim any "illegal immigration" of Russians - into Russia. And camps were created for ethnic Russians, in the occupied Russian region.
It was a case of government cleansing an occupied region of an unwanted ethnos. A failed attempt, yes, but failed only because of the failure of the Nazi invasion into Russia. This goal of cleansing the land is well sourced by reputable sources. Overall, making all these claims without sources I have to respond to, moves all this discussion more towards a forum than a talkpage of an article. FeelSunny (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
In that case it would be appreciated if you would answer to the sourced criticism instead of avoiding it. Also you seem to be missing the point that no one here is denying that camps existed. However what is disputed is that Russophobia would be the sole cause of the camps and/or population transfer - similar procedure like Allies (incl. Soviet Union) forced expatriate Germans to go through BTW, which does not constitute phobia - which was only planned, never put to action. Also in similar lines it is disputed if the camps or even the whole issue regarding Finnish military administration of East Karelia 1941-44 has any relevance to be presented in this article - after all there are several articles handling that (Finnish military administration in Eastern Karelia & East Karelian concentration camps). - Wanderer602 (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
[...]what is disputed is that Russophobia would be the sole cause of the camps and/or population transfer[...] - And who says it was a sole cause? I say it was a cause, moreover, one of the few main resons for the creation of concentration camps, but show me the word sole in my posts. Need for forced labor and mass prisons for the unwanted population groups were also important reasons, why do you think I underestimate or overlook these?
it is disputed if the camps or even the whole issue regarding Finnish military administration of East Karelia 1941-44 has any relevance to be presented in this article - it is disputed by you and several other Finnish editors. I do respect your point of view, but you failed to provide a single source that contradicts any of the quotes above:
  • "Finnish war propaganda... concentrated on openly declared political Russophobia",
  • "Russophobia during the Continuation war",
  • "Estern Karelia ... question became politized and increasingly characterized by Russophobia... kinship of nations... " "turn the kindred population into "proper Finnish citizens""
  • "education ... school system... only available to children of nationals",
  • "Finnish national emphasis ... when it came to religion",
  • "rations of people belonging to kindred higher", "death rate in concentration camps 13.8%", "policy of separation was also reflected in the medical care of the population", "non-nationals paid half the wage of nationals", "inequality of treatment on the basis of nationality", "breach of the fundamental principle of humane treatment",
  • "similarities between the German and the Finnish policy...Finns had issued orders which in fact discriminated Russian population".
What else exactly do you need me to source? That Mannerheim and Ruti themselves were Russophobes?
Here, please: "In its fifth fevered session it jolted stubborn, Russophobic President Risto Ryti out of office, gave his job to Finland's one indubitably strong man, stubborn, Russophobic Field Marshal Baron Carl Gustav Mannerheim." Time, Monday, Aug. 14, 1944, [17] FeelSunny (talk) 19:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
P.S. Before you claim that U.S. was an enemy of Finland and the government controlled Time: The U.S. Secretary of State Cordell Hull congratulated the Finnish envoy on 3 October 1941 for the liberation of Karelia but warned Finland not to enter Soviet territory; furthermore, the U.S. did not declare war on Finland when they went to war with the Axis countries and, together with UK, approached Stalin in the Tehran Conference about acknowledging Finnish independence.FeelSunny (talk) 19:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
You haven't provided any which would actually link the camps, ie. internment camps, with russophobia, you could link the intent to move people but not the camps themselves. So as it stands the whole section regarding Finnish internment camps is off topic. All the issues you mentioned are of ethnic segregation, not of russophobia. Claimed russophobia of Ryti or Mannerheim has no relevance to East Karelia or to the camps. Again, none of the issues you mentioned provided any linkage between the camps and russophobia. - Wanderer602 (talk) 20:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
you could link the intent to move people but not the camps themselves - Sorry, but do you understand you here claim that the policy of Russophobic Finnish leaders to perform of an ethnic cleansing of Russians of occupied Russian Karelia was not a manifestation of Russophobia, and would only count as such if I prove that tools used for this ethnic cleansing by the Finnish government in themselves were Russophobic? Is this really what you need to have sourced?
And here's what you call "segregation": “Each camp had a funeral team. Corpses were piled in sheds and then taken to the cemetery. Each mass grave could contain up to 40 corpses. Infants were dying particularly fast.” "The Finnish doctor, Kolehmaynen, instead of treating sick prisoners often took part in the torture of them. Childless Finnish widows, whose husbands had died in the war of 1939-40, were allowed to adopt children of Russian prisoners." "Segregation", huh? And an "adoption" as a result.FeelSunny (talk) 00:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
And here's some other quotes: "Enimmillään siviiliväestöstä 27 % oli leireissä.(14)" "Lasten määrä oli lähes 50 % ja 20-30-vuotiaiden ryhmästä miehiä oli varsin vähän." So, concentration camps for children? Well, yes: "Niinpä suomalaisleirit olivat fasistileirejä, miten tahansa suomalaiset ne selittävätkään." "Ei mielellään haluta tunnustaa, että suomalainenkin on ollut paha ja heidän joukoissaan on ollut sotarikollisen tunnusmerkkeihin sopivia miehityssotilaita."FeelSunny (talk) 00:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Ethnic cleansing is not necessarily a result of a phobia. Upon annexing the Kuril Islands from Japan, all Japanese were expelled. No one (sane) is claiming that this was because of a phobia against Japanese. Similarly, most Germans were expelled from Eastern Prussia. No phobia there. Also, the Finns wanted to remove non-Finns, not specifically Russians. They did not care whether they were Russians, Ukranians, Jews or Armenians. They hated Stalinist Soviet Union, not specifically Russians. - BorisG (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm afraid you wrongly evaluate Russian policy on Kurinls. Please name a single reputable source speaking of "ethnic cleansing of Kurils" conducted by Russians, and not Japanese. Probably, you just misinterpret the very term "ethnic cleansing". Repatriation of the Japanese citizens from Kurils was done in accordance with Japan and the US, and those Japanese citizens that wished to change citizenship and stay in the USSR, did so. Just check.
As to your "Finns wanted to remove non-Finns, not specifically Russians" - name one source about anti-ukrainism or anti-armenianism of the Finnish government, please. 9/10 sent to camps were ethnic Russians. All those sent to camps were planned to be cleansed from the future Great Finland.FeelSunny (talk) 03:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
None of which you posted had anything which would link camps with russophobia apart from your own perceptions. Claimed russophobia of the leaders does not equate that the camps would have been a manifestation of russophobia, like has been described, there were large groups of people who had no place to live other than camps, ie. refugees and persons evicted from the immediate vicinity of the front lines - which already means that there were large group of people in the camps with whom russophobia had nothing to do (not in the sense that camps would have been caused by it, you could say russophobia manifested itself in the camps as ethnic segregation, nothing else). There was no policy to perform ethnic cleansing since none of the related actions took place. At very worst you could call it as planned population transfer - which leaves it well short of what during and after WWII was often performed, even by the Allies. However, again, none of this relates to russophobia. Also, when you post quotes, it would be preferable that you also include the actual source, otherwise those remain nothing but your own writings. In other words there is nothing which would support keeping the camps in this article. - Wanderer602 (talk) 07:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Wanderer, I've posted links to sources so many times in this thread, that I got bored. Probably for once you could somehow dare and look them quotes up yourself? And maybe the very first result in any search machine would be exactly what you need. For all other things, I'll answer later.FeelSunny (talk) 12:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
There are none under this particular header. Could you please provide the sources? - Wanderer602 (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Does any of the sources 35-39 mention the word Russophobia? I did not find it in the 35, and I cannot read Finnish. - BorisG (talk) 16:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Guys, why don't you both next time, before asking me to spend time looking for sources, at least try and check the sources named in the article? Here, quotes from just one of the sources listed in the article, Helge Seppälä. Finland as an occupying nation: "Большинство русскоязычного населения, согласно изданному приказу, загнали в концлагеря, а в деревнях назначили старостами вызывавших наибольшее доверие людей. Использовали мирное население на разных работах без оплаты труда. Программа исходила из того, что Восточная Карелия окончательно остается за Финляндией. Чистка населения от инородных элементов вполне определенно указывала на запланированный расизм. Военное управление стало развернутым институтом власти." Please use the Google translate, or find a Finnish/ English translation, if you don't read Russian - there are ways to read this source. "Чистка населения от инородных элементов..." means "Cleansing of population from non-native elements indicated really clearly a planned racism". Then, "Русское население составляло большинство, или около 47 процентов, карельского населения было 39 процентов. Это неравенство было “исправлено” за счет заключения значительной части русского населения в лагеря. Политика оккупационных властей была явно расистская, и для людей в начале оккупации имело большое значение, к какой касте их отнесут. Находящиеся на свободе люди подразделялись на национальных и ненациональных, что означало на родственные финнам народы и на русских." - Russian population sent to camps due to "obviously racist policy of the occupational authorities". "Скрупулезность, с которой оккупационные власти относились к расовым вопросам, вызывает удивление. В отдельных случаях делали даже расовые обследования. Жителей Заонежья, Шуньгского полуострова подвергли обследованию на предмет их принадлежности к родственным финнам народам." - Racial examinations to make sure of what local population were. "Еще до начала вторжения Маннергейм издал приказ, на основании которого русское население следовало заключить в концлагеря. Приказ этот был в духе времени и издан еще раньше приказа “Меч в ножны”." - "Even before starting the war, Mannerheim issued an order according to which Russian population ought to be sent to concentration camps". "Чтобы сделать Паданы национальным селением, оттуда осенью 1941 года всех русских переселили в Святнаволоцкий концлагерь. Это перемещение было сделано по распоряжению Главного штаба, и его, как и многие другие, тоже объясняли военной необходимостью, но едва ли была надобность заключать людей в концлагерь." - "To make Padany a national settlement, all Russians were moved in Autumn, 1941 to the Svyatonavolotsky concentration camp". And so on. These are just some quotes from one source describing ethnic cleansings of ethnic Russians by Finns with the use of concentration camps. Now, please, stop spending your and mine time discussing matters that are covered in multiple sources named on this page, and in the article. FeelSunny (talk) 15:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Really, that the Bäckman Institute publishes their work rather tosses it out the window as a POV anything that makes the Soviets look like victims in WWII, the Russians today as victims of the Finns and Estonians, etc., etc., etc. pile of unencyclopedic axe-grinding advocacy. Feel free to write a blog based on anything Helge has written, but not WP content.PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 16:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Do you have sources claiming Helge Seppälä is not a reliable source?
From what I've found in two minutes, he's a Lieutenant-Colonel of the Finnish General Staff. He also was fighting during the war. And, the article I quoted was based on a book not at all published by any "Bäckman Institute" you talk about, - in fact it was written before any "Bäckman Institute" could have been created. Look it up: ISBN 9510124834, 9789510124833. P.S. Vecrumba, could you please check your facts better in the future, please remember it takes somebody's else time responding to your claims.FeelSunny (talk) 16:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
And his latest work, Leningradin saarto 1941–1944: murhenäytelmän sävyttämä voitto (The Blockade of Leningrad 1941-1944: Tragic Shades of This Victory) is published by Bäckman, that is, the author and his works fit into the extremist agenda of SAFKA. Unreliable until there's a mainstream reputable academic source which deems any particular work you wish to cite as objective and reliable. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Sources that claim Seppala is unreliable, please? Or please stop spending our time.FeelSunny (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Finns hate world powers?

Since there was a disagreement in editing about this, I thought I'd post the data I was referencing here: 1st, BBC's 2005 poll (here: http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc06-3/index.html) about view of x-nation's "influence" shows that Finns have on-balance positive views of the 'influence' of UK, France and especially Japan (UK and France were actually pluralities, but they were much higher than the negative %, and they approached 50%), and staunchly positive views of "Europe"'s 'influence'. On the other hand, they held negative views of the influences of the US, China, Russia and Iran and plurality held negative views of India. And then there's Gallup's 2012 poll on "leadership" (available here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/153965/Germany-Tie-Highest-Approval-Among-Top-Powers.aspx#2). Here, a majority of Finns (58%) were supportive of UK "leadership", and even more felt the same way toward Germany (68%). Although not directly available on this article, the Finnish view of US "leadership" is also positive (as shown here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/145100/Approval-Stable-European-Union.aspx). Finns had a 50-53% (depending on whether you look at 2010 or 2011) approval rating for US "leadership", meaning (in my mind at least) that the earlier Finnish polls showing dislike of the US were more attributable to the contemporary US policies (the Iraq War, most importantly) rather than some deeply ingrained dislike of Americans or world powers. --Yalens (talk) 12:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah! The 2004 Gallup poll was used in the to promote the view of Finnish "antipathy" towards Russians in the article. In the poll was asked if the contribution of the G8 member country was negative or positive to the world affairs. And as in the 2005 BBC poll Finland was keeping up with the last European countries in liking any of G8 members, except UK. Also measuring influence/contribution of the country and being supportive to the leadership doesn't measure the same thing: The leadership moving to the right direction could get the support eventhough the approval doesn't reach the country in general.
The sentence You removed was from the same article which was used for using the poll as an evidence of Finnish Russophobia, and the sentence had a reference pointing to that article. If we use the article conclusion to prove one thing and then omit other conclusions done there, we are cherry picking information and forming unbalanced view to the article. I really consider it important information, if Finns were considered having more negative view about Russia than other European countries, that it is also pointed out that the same poll found that Finns had similarily more negative view to other major countres referred in the poll (except UK) than other European countries. --Whiskey (talk) 21:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
If there is the view that Finns just hate world powers, we should state who supports that view, what they say about it (quotes) and a citation. In any case, I, for one, think the current status quo of that paragraph is just fine: it states that Finns have a view of Russia colored by Russia's actions in the past. Most people agree on that, no? Do you have any problem with it? --Yalens (talk) 02:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
If we remove the reference to the 2004 poll, then it is ok for me. If the poll is used, then no. --Whiskey (talk) 16:34, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps we could replace the poll there with, perhaps, Gallup 2012 or BBC 2005 polls, and show info on more countries than just Finland. We could put in a chart that isn't specific to any section, as is done on the anti-Americanism page.--Yalens (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

America absent in the list of countries in an article on Russophobia?

Are we serious? From my experience, America and Americans are one of the main proponents of whole Russophobia concept. Not mentioning America's attempts to spread Russophobia undermines the credibility, and essentially makes it one of the most biased articles I've seen on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RS-Fighter (talk • contribs) 13:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Arab like best friends Russian nation, a strategic partner Russia. USA Finland China Eastern European countries Hungary Czech Republic Estonia Latvia Lithuania Poland Baltics Ukraine Armenia Georgia post-Soviet states - Russofobia tough anywhere. Russofobia-Remained free only Islamic, Arab and African People's Peopl. Arabe's - brought Islam to curls Big bibleische nation today for a strategic Partnere Mosqua power elite. The us explain why Russia main politician's blokieren UN troops for Siria why she arabed cleavage city Brussels in Free City "Babilon - 5" with 40% of People islamique supported secretly, why Russia has not starred in Iraque Krig and Milliard's USD Iraq debt for Russia suspended in air, why could fight Al Qaeda 10 years against U.S. Armi brave, bin Laden fled about 18 years of all western and eastern intelligence agencies always managed on time, etc. United States (Gross domestic product 15,094's trillion USD) Operates approximately 8 Million's Israelites a la small strategic partner, Russia (Gross domestic product 1850's trillion USD) 336 Million's Arabe's a la great partner. Russians about 143 million's. But, with the help of Allah and Mosqua Poltiker's they make. Although, Arabe are often poor but know God's work - pouring blood, take away the life well. Jihad posted there and here, as in Quran - "WITH GOOD AND BLOOD". For the United Russia! Perhaps it is useful to increase a sentence in Article Russofobia. Adoptleads (talk) 14:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
  1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
  2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
  3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

It's still a hopelessly POV unencyclopedic laundry list with virtually no historical background that actually examines true Russophobia. It needs a total rewrite. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 04:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

allegations versus instances

Just taking Latvia, for example, the first source cited states nothing about actual incidents or types of discrimination, there is only one sentence in the entire source.

As for Slucis, he wouldn't treat a Russian with Soviet-glorifying tattoos. The article basically posits that anything anti-Soviet is by definition Russophobic. Indeed, post-Soviet Russian authorities and politicians have taken pains to cultivate this brand new definition of "Russophobia" having nothing to do with true Russophobia. The list is not "Russophobia by country". If no one likes adding "allegations" then come up with a better title or the POV tag goes back on, consider the removed tag having been discussed. Just because no one has the energy to throw into this black hole to even discuss it does not make it less POV. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 16:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

China

Why is the whole paragraph about Uyghurs? Does it mean Han Chinese and Russians get along well?--2.245.112.125 (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

How you assume that it's about "Uyghurs" but not whole China? Bladesmulti (talk) 18:17, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Russian sentiment among Sarikoli (Tajiks of Xinjiang) in 1900

In response to increased Tsarist Russian activity in Sarikol around 1900, the local Sarikoli begs and Sarikoli people feared that Russia was going to annex the region and take it away from China, fearing molestation at the hands of the Russians, they wanted to flee to Yarkand. They did not believe the official explanation that Russia was only concerned with the postal service in the area.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA125&dq=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2BFHU4umB6rNsQTVqYDADQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=100%20petty%20Sarikol%20protested%20against%20Russians%20molest&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&dq=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2BFHU4umB6rNsQTVqYDADQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA125&dq=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRJHU76nJ-qwsAT144CoBg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=On%208%20February%20a%20deputation%20from%20Sarikol%20arrived%20at%20Yarkand%20and%20presented%20to%20the%20Amban%20three%20petitions%20which%20bore%20the%20seals%20of%20six%20headmen%20and%20the%20thumb-marks%20of%20about%20100%20petty%20Sarikol%20officials.%20They%20protested%20against%20the%20arrival%20of%20the%20Russians%20and%20asked%20to%20be%20given%20land%20near%20Yarkand%20as%20they%20were%20certain%20that%20the%20Russians%20would%20molest%20them.&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&dq=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRJHU76nJ-qwsAT144CoBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ

Rajmaan (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Russian incident with Uyghur prostitutes in Kashgar in January of 1900

An anti-Russian riot occured in Kashgar in January of 1900 when Russians consorted with Turki (Uyghur) prostitutes.

On page 124

http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA124#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=Russian+couriers+three+Cossacks+Russian+customs+native+prostitutes+Kashgar&dq=Russian+couriers+three+Cossacks+Russian+customs+native+prostitutes+Kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3BRHU5mhAYnJsQSQ9IGQCA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bbr5AQAAQBAJ&pg=PT126&dq=Russian+couriers+three+Cossacks+Russian+customs+native+prostitutes+Kashgar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3BRHU5mhAYnJsQSQ9IGQCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Russian%20couriers%20three%20Cossacks%20Russian%20customs%20native%20prostitutes%20Kashgar&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 22:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Russia versus Soviet Union

English language uses the word Russian for Soviet people. Now Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are member states of the EU and they manifest their non-Russian cultures. Xx236 (talk) 11:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Add Finland related item?

fromPortal:Current events/2014 June 9 99.181.134.49 (talk) 03:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Russophobia -> Anti-Russian sentiment

The page was recently moved from Russophobia to Anti-Russian sentiment by an editor who has not even bothered to involve themselves in the bare discussion here. I have just reversed this move. The advantage of the original "Russophobia" title, it seems to me, is that it keeps the article focused and deals with a specific concept. The danger of "Anti-Russian sentiment" is that it is poorly defined and therefore could encompass any expression of discontent with Russia or the Russian army, which is surely undesirable for an encyclopaedic article.

Anyone who disagrees is of course welcome to present their case here. Alfietucker (talk) 09:10, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, a phobia is an explicitly irrational fear, which makes any inclusion of instances of it a little POV. It then means that if someone has a well-founded reason to dislike Russia, we have no place to discuss that on Wikipedia. Anti-Russian sentiment is intentionally a little broader. Also, almost all articles on such sentiments are at the Anti-X sentiment or Anti-Xism (see Anti-Pakistan sentiment, Anti-Canadianism, etc.) Red Slash 03:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
This is not a dictionary, but an encyclopaedia, so it is not merely about a word's literal meaning (even assuming the definition you give is correct), but how it is applied and used, correctly or incorrectly, by politicians, the media, pundits, historians, etc. You've presumably heard of the term "Islamophobia", which is a much-contested term but at least people agree that in principle it means an unreasonable hatred or dislike or fear of Islam and followers of that religion. Similarly, Russophobia is about an unreasonable level of fear and/or hatred against the nation and/or people, and that definition presumably decides what is included in this article.
Bear in mind, too, that the article has been built (without your participation until yesterday, AFAIK) since July 2005 according to the title "Russophobia" and that has been its focus until now. As soon as you change the title to something like "Anti-Russian sentiment" you are actually moving the goal posts so wide apart that any vague grumble about the Russians may be included, and the result IMHO will be an ill-focused article or laundry list.
If you are concerned that "well-founded reasons" for disliking Russians will be unaccounted for, then the place to address these are in articles concerning former-satellite states of the Soviet Union, or certain articles to do with World War II (e.g. in Winter War describing the Soviet invasion of Finland). Speaking for myself, I have been keeping an eye on this article precisely to check that no such material is included here unless it is clearly signposted/explained as a case of legitimate dislike, as opposed to what you call "irrational fear". Alfietucker (talk) 09:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

(weird rant)

<Russophobia and the Civil Service of the Russian Federation.> Russo phobia and the Civil Service of the Russian Federation. Russian, Russian nation given by the Lord in the fate of the FSB, the GRU, and the dear Mr. President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. For the effizieller control the Russian nation in the world, a repressive apparatus necessary for ... the above honorable gentlemen. To excessive, possibly dangerous negative emotion is to escape more convenient to use non-Russians. Turks, Arabs, Albanians, blacks, and so on. (For example, from Division No. 12 GRU RF). Russia FSB yes enlarge the budget, so may also be more expensive allied for afford (Flaman's, German, Swiss's, etc.)(Well, thank God, sent old discus the archive.) What? Is this to be relocating to a different topic? 21052014Nr2 (talk) 14:34, 25 June 2014 (UTC) Is this to be relocating to a different topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 21052014Nr2 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Types of russophobia

I reverted section with this name because it is original research of WP:SYNTH type. The editor collected a bunch of examples (some are with references) and imposed classification on them. This is as clear WP:SYNTH as can be. You need references which actually describe the classification. -No.Altenmann >t 03:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Germany ?

I think it's high time to create also a Germany section under 2.3 for Russophobia, isn't it ? --129.187.244.28 (talk) 12:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

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