Talk:Allsvenskan

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Felaktiga uppgifter (false information)[edit]

Vem det än är som ändrar hela tiden, så har du fel fel fel om vilka som anses vara svenska mästare genom åren. Våga titta på historik på svenskfotboll.se för att se med dina egna ögon att din uppfattning om vilka som är mästare skiljer sig från alla andras, inkl. SvFF, kika även på http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotbollsallsvenskan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion666 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hej. Jag skriver på engelska från och med nu. This article is about Allsvenskan, which was started in 1924–25. For a list of "svenska mästare", see Swedish football champions. Notice the difference between winning Allsvenskan (as MFF did in 1987) and winning the title Swedish Champions (as IFK Göteborg did in 1987). Who is wrong? – Elisson • Talk 18:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but check out http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotbollsallsvenskan or http://www.svenskfotboll.se/t2all.aspx?p=287554 for the clubs recognised as the swedish champions, which include Svenska Mästerskapserien which were the ancestor of Allsvenskan. The way you count the champions is not the way it is recognised by SvFF, or anyone else for that matter. ypu would atleast wanna check out who you put as champions from 1982 to 1992, it's so way wrong
- SM-slutspel, finalsegrare - Play-offs, final winners
1982 IFK Göteborg (mot Hammarby 1-2 h, 3-1 b)seriesegrare/league winner: Göteborg
1983 IFK Göteborg ( mot Öster 1-1 b, 3-0 h)seriesegrare: AIK
1984 IFK Göteborg (mot IFK Norrköping 5-1 b, 2-0 h)seriesegrare: Göteborg
1985 Örgryte IS (mot IFK Göteborg 4-2, 2-3)seriesegrare: Malmö FF
1986 Malmö FF (mot AIK 0-1 b, 5-2 h)seriesegrare: Malmö FF
1987 IFK Göteborg (mot Malmö FF 1-0 h, 1-2 b)seriesegare: Malmö FF
1988 Malmö FF (mot Djurgården 0-0 b, 7-3 h)seriesegrare: Malmö FF
1989 IFK Norrköping (mot Malmö FF 0-2 h, 1-0 b,0-0 b [4-3 på straffar])seriesegrare: Malmö FF
1990 IFK Göteborg (mot IFK Norrköping 3-0 b, 0-0 h)seriesegrare: IFK Göteborg
1991 IFK Göteborg
1992 AIK — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion666 (talk • contribs) 19:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? Did you just read what I wrote? This page does not list the Swedish Champions (which, as I said, is listed on Swedish football champions). This page lists the winners of the league called Allsvenskan, which does not always correspond to the Swedish Champions, as in 1987 for example, when MFF won Allsvenskan but IFK Göteborg won the Swedish Championship as they managed to win the play-off held that year. Do you understand me? And please add ~~~~ after your posts to sign them. – Elisson • Talk 19:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? Did you just read what I wrote? THEY ARE NOT RECOGNISED AS CHAMPIONS OF ALLSVENSKAN, no where else is Malmö FF seen as the 18 time winners of Allsvenskan, you should atleast use the official winners, because the league wasn't over after the regular series games, but it ended AFTER the playoffs, not BEFORE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion666 (talk • contribs) 19:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They are indeed recognised as winners of Allsvenskan. Do you even read your own links? Check above and notice how it says "seriesegare: Malmö FF" for 1987, while IFK Göteborg won the Swedish Championship that year. If you want the official Swedish Chamipions list, go to Swedish football champions, which includes titles won before Allsvenskan was started, and also takes into consideration play-offs. This article is about Allsvenskan, and thus winners of other tournaments than Allsvenskan are irrelevant to the article. – Elisson • Talk 19:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Still, the way you list champions is not the official listing, which you don't seem to understand. Svenska Mästerskapserien is a pre-Allsvenskan, the same way Division 1 was up to 1987. The way you count you can only add the clubs who have won since 1988 when it changed it's name to Allsvenskan, see my point? Furthermore, as it is stated on http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotbollsallsvenskan that: "The first Allsvenskan season was played 1924/1925 and was won by GAIS. Between the years 1982-1990 the championship was settled through playoffs" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion666 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? The official list is on Swedish football champions, go there and have a look. Why should that list be here, when some of the winners of the championship hasn't even played in Allsvenskan, which this article is about. Svenska Mästerskapet was not a predecessor of Allsvenskan (the two tournaments were even played side by side one year). And Allsvenskan has been named so since the start in 1924–25, so why are you talking about Division 1? Your messages are just mumbo jumbo right now, and I can't understand what you really want? – Elisson • Talk 19:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will say no more after this, since I don't have time to argue with a little child that probably don't even remember anything about football before 1995 or so, look at this and then realise http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_1_i_fotboll and http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotbollsallsvenskan#Historik (right at the top) and then try to understand that I was around by the time Division 1 changed it's name to Allsvenskan, now tell me I'm wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion666 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Eh... What that article says is that there Allsvenskan was considered to be the first division (Division 1), but it was still named Allsvenskan. I have a picture of a newspaper from 1949 that says "Fotbollsresultat, Allsvenskan" and a text from another newspaper from 1950–51 writing "...skall IFK Göteborg åter ta klivet upp i Allsvenskan...". Are these falsifications...? Why does this page talk about "Allsvenskan best scorers and average attendance 1925-"? Did you call Allsvenskan "Division 1" before 1988? Come on... Realize that you are wrong. And please stop violating WP:CIV, and start signing your posts by adding ~~~~ after them. – Elisson • Talk 19:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Allsvenskan became the official name in 1987, not 1988. (the Allsvenskan season runs from April to late October/early November). J 1982 23:33, 11 March 2007 (CET)

In the infobox to the right, Under "Most championships" IFK Göteborg (18 Titles) are listed. I consider this to be wrong. This specific article is about Allsvenskan. It is true that IFK Göteborg has won the Swedish championship the most times, BUT Malmö FF has won Allsvenskan the most times. Malmö FF has won Allsvenskan 18 times while IFK Göteborg has won it 15 times. Thus, in this specific article which is about Allsvenskan, shouldn't Malmö FF be listed as most championships in the infobox? Since there has been discussion about this before I would like to express my view on it. I think it is obvious that this article is about Allsvenskan and thus I want to correct the infobox, hit me up on my talk page and if I havn't heard anything in a couple of days I'll change it.Reckless182 (talk) 00:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one has voiced any voice for my point of discussion I edited it, Drop by my talk page if you have views on it.Reckless182 (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Under the Status section (which I would like to move up to the top info) says that "The champions of the Allsvenskan are considered Swedish Champions since 1931." That is completly wrong, cause of the playofss in the eighties and the "Mästerskapsserien" in the early 90s. I rewrite that section now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.26.234.230 (talk) 17:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotbollsallsvenskan should redirect here. Note the *en* and not the *sv*. Douglas A. Whitfield of http://www.ibiblio.org/cosi (talk) 01:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Allsvenskan is about Allsvenskan (not Swedish Champions)[edit]

Since the article has the name "Allsvenskan" , it must mainly deal with the subject of this. Play-offs during the 80's and early 90's can be mentioned, but the focus myst be on the league as such. There were competitions about the Championchip title long before Allsvenskan was founded but this article ought f.i. to deal with winners of Allsvenskan rather than winners of the championchip. This has nothing to do with what SvFF recognizes or not, but sooner Wikipedia standard. Also a history part is called for, this should (apart from common historical events) deal how the teams of the first season qualified, and with differencies of the rules. When the yellow and red card became introduces. When substitutions became introduced etc. Changes of the offside rule, I think there is atleast two of those. One rather early and the one in the 90's. Also when 3 point for won games was introduced, and when goal ratio was abandoned in favor of goal differency when teams ended at the same number of points. Also how and when the season shifted "from autumn to spring" to "from spring to autumn", how many teams that has participated during different periods and the "Maratonallsvenskan" (12 teams played 33 games when the seasnal structure shifted). Boeing720 (talk) 07:40, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure what you mean with your first part, that this article should mainly deal with Allsvenskan. It already does? Focus is already on Allsvenskan, not on Swedish championships, playoffs or Svenska Serien. – Elisson • T • C • 12:11, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It was mainly the issue of "Swidish champions" I thought of, during the first years. There was no Swedish Champions at all after Allsvenskan began, except for the very first year when Brynäs was awarded the chmpionchip, dispite not participating in Allsvenskan. Boeing720 (talk) 05:13, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

90 years without any intermission, not importaint ?[edit]

As British football was closed from the second year of World War I, and only 3 rounds were played in the 1939/40 season and a new war time intermission followed. Portuguese league didn't began until in 1934. Current Swiss league began at the same time. In Spain the league began in the 1920's , but here an intermission stopped all football during the civil war 1936-39. And all other possible leagues in Europe was affected by the second world war, eighter though the war itself or due to occupation or the liberation process. In Germany there was no national league until Bundesliga began in the early 1960's. The same applies to other Scandinavian countries aswell. Thg Italian league, (which also began in the 1920's) had to have stopped, at the very latest 1943, when the front divided the country. Duthch and Belgian leagues may have continued during the first years of occupation, but intermissions must have occurred during atleast 1944-45. So where do we find a league that has been held without intermissions during a time of soon 90 years. Whithin Europe I connot find any league that has been played almost during a sequence of 90 years.In Latinamerica f.i. Brazil has mostly used regional leagues. In Argentina thought, it appears as a longer sequence exist. (amateur league until the mid 1930's - but that is surely true also for Allsvenskan). But I strongly suggest that a phrase like "Allsvenskan has runned without any intermission for 90 years, longer than any other European league" is put back in the text. Boeing720 (talk) 05:47, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Find a source, then write it. — Swedishpenguin | Talk 09:50, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Svenska Serien[edit]

Did someone suggest that "Allsvenskan" was not the name used from the season it was founded 1924-25 ? From where comes this idea ? Boeing720 (talk) 23:27, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as said in the edit, the Swedish Football Association used the name "Svenska Serien" in their annual report until 1934. The full official name was "Svenska Serien Division 1". Page 27 in "100 år med allsvensk fotboll" by Martin Alsiö. – Elisson • T • C • 21:52, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But wasn't it labeled as "Allsvenskan" ? I can visit a library that stores the local newspaper back to the 19th century, must I really do that ? I can't say You are wrong, but does Your source not mention "Allsvenskan" as the commonly used label from its start ? It must surelly be the public name that matters Boeing720 (talk) 00:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, You have previously written "And Allsvenskan has been named so since the start in 1924–25,...". No offence, but It seems a bit strange. Boeing720 (talk) 00:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By the way 2 - I like Your generous introduction of Yourself, thats really rare to see. I'm also fond of Your "Götteborg-icon", if possible, how do I make a Scanian version ? (all help would be appriciated) Boeing720 (talk) 00:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I also noticed that it was You who reverted my edit about von Rosen and the old trophy. I just feel that it's wrong to end the "Trophy story" with the accusation of C. von Rosen as a nazi-symphatiser. It could possibly be shortened down, but I didn't mention Carl Gustav von Rosens later flight aid to Biafra and later Ethiopia. If You really feel it to be that disturbing, perhaps You could shorten it down instead. I'm thinking if Clarence von Rosen was an ancestor of mine, and the only connection was a wife's sisters second marriage ? Lars-Åke Lagrell is cited stating "this is no accusation of von Rosen". We could also skip the entire (nazi-) reason, possibly ? Boeing720 (talk) 00:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
AIK (actually) has an excellent database, and they state
"1924-25 - Den moderna Allsvenskan startar.
Äntligen fick Sverige en riktig riksomfattande serie med ned- och uppflyttning. ::Allsvenskan, eller storserien som den kallades i början, blev en succé från start.",
this was news to me. "Storserien" ? I have also noted that the quote I used half an hour ago, indeed was very old. Sorry. But this got me very curious, I think I will pay the library a visit in any case, just to see what was stated in "Landskrona Posten" in 1924. (I remember that Allsvenskan also was labeled as "Division 1" in the early 70's) Boeing720 (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, media used "Allsvenskan" or "Allsvenska serien" as well, but the official name, going by the SvFF annual reports, was "Svenska Serien(s Division 1)" until 1934, when it was changed to "Allsvenska Serien(s Division 1). The name "Allsvenskan" was used long before 1924, the actual newspaper letter by Erik Bergvall that started the process to create what we now call "Svenska Serien" had the title En allsvensk tävlingsserie.
The choice of 1924 as the official start of "Allsvenskan" is nothing more than an artificial construction by Rudolf "R:et" Eklöw who in 1934 wanted to increase the sales of "Fotbollsboken" (the official calendar) and thus marketed it as the 10 year jubilee calendar (which summarized all previous years), and decided to call the league before 1924 "Svenska Serien" and the league from 1924 "Allsvenskan". An easy choice considering the consolidation of the league into one group (but that had existed before as well), the start of an official national league pyramid (even though the largest change was made in 1928), and the difficulty for Eklöw to find information on matches, goalscorers and lineups for the early years.
Carl Linde wrote for Idrottsbladet in 1924, and this is part of his text about the league start that year:
Den stora seriestarten i söndags ägde rum utan större ceremonier från arrangörernas sida och utan vidare uppmärksamhet från publiken. När den allsvenska serien startades för första gången för fjorton år sedan, skedde det under pukor och trumpeter men så var det också Hugo Levin, som den gången stod för ruljansen och slog på reklamtrumman. Nu satte man i gång under betydligt enklare former och – med hänsyn till tävlingens betydelse – minimal publiktillslutning. Är det verkligen så att man överdrivit allmänhetens intresse för inhemska matcher av detta slag?
Even 100 år: Svenska Fotbollförbundets jubileumsbok 1904–2004 mentions the naming:
[...] och hösten 1912 tog Svenska Fotbollförbundet på sig att anordna seriespel [my note: before that, "Svenska Serien" was a private venture]. Det kan också skönjas en klar åtstramning när det gäller klubbarnas förmåga att leva upp till sina åtaganden efter Fotbollförbundets inträde på området. Här benämns den högsta serien t.o.m. 1924 generellt "Svenska serien". Denna benämning användes oftast för denna serie, men begreppet allsvenska serien förekom emellanåt långt innan 1924, precis som begreppet svenska serien inte slutade användas detta år. Efterhand har dock en uppdelning av benämningen för den högsta serien innan och efter 1924 kommit att bli vardaglig.
There were some protests against Eklöw's choice of 1924, not least from IFK Göteborg which were "robbed" of five league titles due to this.
I was eight years younger and had read several dozens of books and newspapers fewer when I wrote what you quoted. :)
For the Göteborg badge, just check the code of my page. – Elisson • T • C • 20:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this long interesting enlightment. I must though make some comments. Obviously wasn't "Allsvenskan" formal in 1924-25, and the word "allsvensk.." had been used ealier aswell. But I don't quite understand "IFK Göteborg which were "robbed" of five league titles", a main issue must be when Sweden got a nationwide single top-league (within the scope of this article). F.i. GF Idrott, from Landskrona won their league in 1908, the top league they could participate in.
Regarding "Status" - I'm not really interested in the exact formulation, however I don't find it appropriate to equal a "nationwide league" gold before 1931 with the same between 1982 and 1992. Here is a major difference, since the main aim for the clubs were to win the nationwide league in the 20's and earliest 30's (whatever its label). But between 1982 and 1992 the ultimate goal was to win the play-off's / Mästerskapsserien, rather than the league. I hope You see my point. I will study your code with pleasure. thanks ! Boeing720 (talk) 02:00, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Svenska Serien started as a nationwide league in 1910, and was brought under control of the Swedish Football Association in 1912. Either of those two years could be considered the start of a nationwide premier league. Promotion and relegation was not in place, but teams doing well in other lower leagues were given spots in the league, such as IFK Uppsala in 1912–13, GAIS in 1915–16 and Helsingborgs IF in 1916–17. Today, the official record states that IFK Göteborg has won 13 league (Allsvenskan) titles, as Eklöw set the start date to 1924. If Eklöw had (less arbitrary) chosen 1910 or 1912 instead, IFK Göteborg would have 18 official league (Allsvenskan) titles.
As a sidenote, Sweden did not get a full nationwide premier league until 1952–53, when teams from upper Norrland were allowed promotion into the higher divisions.
There is nothing in the text equalling the league before 1931 with the league between 1982 and 1992. The only equalling that is being done is that during neither of those two periods were the winners of Allsvenskan considered Swedish Champions. – Elisson • T • C • 09:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Working at Aftonbladet ?[edit]

Since it yesterday was revealed that Swedish Wikipedia had been changed by politicians, journalists, civil servants etc, I just want to tell Aftonbladet-connected people not make any edits related to (or from) that tabloid! None mentioned, none forgotten. (Swedish expression) Boeing720 (talk) 00:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

About nazi symphatiser accusations[edit]

I find such allegations to be of very serious kind, and shouldn't be mentioned without good reasons and better source(s) than what the Aftonbladet reference is. I do though agree that the von Rosen section of the Trophy section became far too long. I hope my new much shorter version can be accepted. I've changed speculative "nazi symphtiser" (it's speculative already in Aftonbladet) to a very brief explination of why the trophy was substitued. To this I would like to add that during WW1, many upper class Swedes sympathised with the Central Powers and Germany. And also after the war, the Swedish-German connections remained strong. Berlin was a very common and popular destination for Swedes that could afford such a travel and holiday. The daily train between Malmö and Berlin (trough the train ferry line Trelleborg - Saßnitz) made Berlin easily available. (Also in 1933-39) Many pupils were taught the German language in schools. (very few spoke English in those days) When Hitler came to power few Swedes knew much about nazism and far less how history would develope. And of those who knew a bit more of nazism, they oftenly regarded it as a guarantor towards the very feared Bolsjevism. (Atleast in the "upper classes") And some remained pro-German without any deeper knowledge of Nazism. My grandmother (mother's mother) who was married to a local manager of Handelsbanken in Landskrona were always very keen to talk about these issues. Their wedding trip went to Berlin in 1932, and they visited Berlin also after 1933. They noted marching men of "various kind" and once met a man with the Jew-star on a bus, that appeared to be very frightened, she told me. My grandfather gradualy realised that Hitler was a danger. But my grandmother's sister's man was fond of Hitler for a long time. But nobody knew anything about the Holocaust until very late in the war. To be regarded as "nazi symphathiser" a little more is needed, I think (like a membership of the Swedish nazi party, pro-nazi speeches, or atleast as my grandmother's sister's husband was, etc). But we do not know much of Clarence von Rosen's political ideas. So I find it inappropriate to use a phrase that states "von Rosen as a nazi symphtiser" based only on Aftonbladet. Hence my long "defence" of von Rosen.

.

I was also completely wrong about the shape of the old trophy. Boeing720 (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Scanian clubs in "Svenska Mästerskapet"[edit]

Just a note: Boeing720 (talk · contribs), you wrote "To win the Swedish Championchip before 1931 was mostly not even possible for f.i. Scanian clubs." in an edit summary even though you did not include anything about it in the edit. Which is good, because your edit summary is just not true. In 1905 six clubs from Scania participated, in 1906 one club, and from 1908 to 1923 (after which the big clubs stopped participating), Scania was always represented by at least one club. Helsingborg even have been runners-up twice in the tournament. – Elisson • T • C • 10:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

any source for this ? Boeing720 (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are sources given in the linked articles for 1905 and 1906. And the same sources for the rest of the years. – Elisson • T • C • 23:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unclear things speculative ?[edit]

I think issues like when the "two in front" offside rule first was used in Allsvenskan, aswell as when the Red and Yellow cards were first used, are of importance. I wrote what I could find only. The cards was invented by an English referee (as he stopped his car at some traffic lights) and was first introduced in the 1970 World Cup. I cannot find if they came in use during the 1970 season or a little later. Even more difficult is to find out when the (almost) current offside rule came to Sweden. Previously English FA (who made their rules, and others followed them; from FIFA's introduction of the World Cup in 1930 until after the second World War one could say "two slightly different sets of rules could appear simultaniously". What's clear about the modern offside rule, is that FA introduced it in 1925/26. I have not been able to find out when FIFA adapted the new offside rule or when they became in use within Allsvenskan. Is it speculation to say "it's unclear" ? We do now for certain "two in front" (since the early 90's "one in line [defender] + one in front [the goal keeper]") came in use eventually, but it couldn't possibly been already from scratch. And I recall something about "Hälsingborgssystemet" as it got labeled, HIF was the first club to learn how to use the new offside rule to their benefit. Offside_(association_football)#History states

"Finally, Sheffield came into line with the F.A., and "three opponents" became the rule until 1925. The change to the "two opponents" rule led to an immediate increase in goal-scoring. 4,700 goals were scored in 1,848 Football League games in 1924–25. This number rose to 6,373 goals (from the same number of games) in 1925–26."

The offside rule is really what makes the game to "flow" all over the pitch, without it football wouldn't be as we know it today, dispite of occational disappointments over cancelled goals. The reason I wrote the uncertainties, was in the hope of help. I've mailed SvFF nine questions about the exact time rule changes came into use in Allsvenskan, but am not at all certain if they care to answer. (by the way, I think FIFA should clearify the directives to the linesmen, to only pull the flag if he/she is absolutely certain - in doubtful cases the linesmen should give benefit for the attacking team. Around half a second or one feet (30 cm) "in front" could pass, without changing the essence of the play, I think) Is it really only I that am interested in such (historical) matters ? Boeing720 (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that you add things that do not really contribute anything to the article. On the contrary, it is not unclear at all when the two rules were changed. I've read the exact seasons for it in a book not very long ago (I just don't have the time or will to look it up again at the moment). But saying that it is unclear in the article is actually untrue. – Elisson • T • C • 21:03, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Of cource You are right - if someone knows - then it isn't unclear, but I couldn't know that. There is no hurry , but I hope we can establish the exact times for all essential rule changes by time. I think they are within the scope of this article Boeing720 (talk) 21:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Medal table[edit]

I have transferred Medal table to MS Excel and have columns summed. Result:
1st (gold) 96, 2nd (big silver) 95, 3rd (small silver) 97, 4th (bronze) 96
It seems to be mistake there. Nadsenec2 (talk) 13:35, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Changed according to svwiki. 1 bronze moved from AIK to Norrköping and 1 small silver changed to big silver with Helsingborg. Nadsenec2 (talk) 13:56, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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