Talk:All-female band/Archive 1

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Archive 1


Discussion

Does the article mean that they sing and play live as opposed miming to a previously recorded piece which has been enhanced by digital means? The Spice girls did actually sing live on some occasions and therefore should they not be classed as an all woman band? Or do you reckon that their singing wasn't really up to it, therefore relegating them to girl band status.

  • It's not about singing live, it's about whether they play their own musical instruments on stage and on their albums. The Supremes used to sing live in front of an audience but they are still called a girl group, because their backing musicians were male. HelenWatt 04:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

re: girls' group - where is BANANARAMA? and SHAKESPEAR'S SISTER?Thurlowweed (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Kittie

http://www.kittie.net/

girls band...

  • I do agree, I am not a kittie fan to be honest, but they do deserve thier place in this article just as much as anyone else. Say go ahead, and add a bit.the nifties 04:41, 22 Jun 2006 (UTC)

POV/accuracy

"Regardless of her view, it is doubtful that it would be difficult to find women playing any manner of instrument today (the punk band Women of Destruction/Estrojet throughout the 1990s featured an accordianist), as all-women bands continue to proliferate."

This is not NPOV. Also, Love's statement that it's "difficult to find a female bass guitarist" does not mean that it is impossible or indeed that there are no proficient female bass guitarists (is there a link to where she talks about this, anyway?). I think it can be argued that it IS difficult to find women musicians, but that's quite irrelevant - what is relevant is that this part of the article is POV:ed and uses a weird argument to prove its point. Apparatus 18:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Structure

This is structured in a manner pertaining to an essay, where it should be structured more encyclopedia like. Perhaps it should be broken up into headings?--75.4.56.153 18:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Uhhh... Joan Jett?

Shouldn't Joan Jett/Joan Jett & the blackhearts be on here? I mean, some people concider her the "original riot grrrl." and she was one of Bikini Kill's biggest inspirations.

---Yes, but The Blackhearts is a coed band.

Josie & Cats

Josie and the Pussycats (comic) and subsequent movies, tv shows, etc, should be worth noting in for the 1960s/70s section. Xsxex 19:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Unnecessary

This article is quite unnecessary. It comes from the assumption that girls playing in bands somehow should be put in a box together since they deviate from "normal" rock bands. If an all-women band article exists, so should an all-men band article exist as well. Sorry for the outburst, and I know the people editing this article have the best of intentions, but sometimes I get sick and tired of women being called "great female musicians" as opposed to "great musicians", period. -- Betina

I couldn't agree more. Why does this article exist? Can someone vote it for deletion? Making a separate page for "Women Bands" as opposed to simply mentioning women in other music articles seems to imply that bands without women are supposed to be the norm. - Anonymous user.

Why not start an article All-male band or Mixed-gender band instead? --80.149.16.69 11:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

---Bands have been traditionally all-male. GET OVER IT!!! Geez.

I agree- the existence of the article is unecessary and a bit offensive. An entry on women in rock would be nice, but "all girl bands" is pointless and silly, not to mention sexist. To the anonymous who posted "bands have been traditionally all male," you are wrong. Female musicians have been playing since the advent of rock. "Geez" yourself. 24.6.199.36 (talk) 17:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Jennifer

I don't agree that it is unnecessary or offensive. Pointless, silly, or sexist, the fact is that such a category exists. People and even written articles talk about "all-girl bands", etc. Indeed, the fact that such bands are made up solely of women may be one of their attractions from a marketing and entertainment point of view. Deleting an article about a phenomenon that people are interested in, out of a personal conviction that it's "offensive" or "unnecessary", is really a kind of censorship.
Bathrobe (talk) 03:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And aside from all that the entire thing is poorly done. There isn't that much information and I think somewhere in the article it said something about The Breeders being an-all girl band... which... they weren't. The drummer, I think, was male. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.203.179.232 (talk) 03:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, if the information is wrong, you could edit it! This is Wikipedia!
Bathrobe (talk) 08:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I also agree that this article -should- be unnecessary, but there are likely piles of articles on Wikipedia that should be unnecessary. I also think this article could be excellent if it approached the issue as a phenomenon and discussed different movements within different genres/cultures of music. I also believe it can eventually provide a wealth of information to folks who genuinely want to learn more about women in music. 7secondsed (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Soundvisions1 (talk) 09:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
While some feel this is not needed that is more of an opinion than fact. Having a "history" of a genre is needed, however forever labeling a musician based on gender is not. In this case this article tries to show a history of female sin music - which is very fair. As fair as an article on the history of Rap Music, a history of country music, a history of Native American music and so on. Or branching out a bit - how about a history of the military in the United Sates that had a subsection on women in combat. Fact is that in certain genres of music females were always shoved in the back or ignored all together. I think it is very important to try and show a history of why that was and how it changed. Ad as for the "girl group" vs "girl band" topic - I think maybe there needs to be a word added - "vocal". I look at a band as a "group who plays instruments". A Group is like saying "I have a car" - well, what kind of car is it? The Spice Girls were not a band, they were a vocal group however. The Bangles are a band, or "a group that plays instruments". And if one wanted to be anal you could argue that Peter, Paul and Mary were a group who sang, and also a band however unless they only do "acoustic" gigs they have other musicians backing them up - so that makes them more of a "group" than a "band".

EstherLaver (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC): I do feel that it is uncomfortable to note female bands, but it is worth honoring/ noting female musicians who have fought to enter this field of music. Perhaps this page needs a historical note, instead of the comment by Roger Ebert. Please see my request for deletion of this comment below.

Deletion

Ahh beautiful, apparently dubbing someone a moaning feminist bitch overrules any of that person's rational arguments. This article looks wonderfully spread thin & reads like a school essay even after being revised. Betina 00:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

---Bands have been traditionally all-male. GET OVER IT!!! Geez.

Terminology

This article seems to be claiming that "girl bands" play instruments and "girl groups" don't, but a moment's research with Google will show you that the term "girl band" is extremely widely used for vocal groups (Spice Girls, Girls Aloud etc. etc.); c.f. Boy band. Where did this idea come from? 02:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC).

The distinction between "all-women bands" and "girl groups" has been in the article from the outset, that is, since the very first version by user:Heidimo in January 2004. This was before the days when every statement on Wikipedia had to be backed up with sources.
Interestingly, despite calls for the article to be deleted by more feministic editors (see above), Heidimo herself is a musician and has "a Bachelor's degree in English with a creative writing concentration, with Honors and a Women's studies minor".

Honestly, the use of that (and related terms) is another prime example of American misuse of clearly defined English words that has, unfortunately, made its way from casual conversation (where such lexical errors are acceptable) to the forefront of journalism and media (where such errors aren't). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.182.78.234 (talk) 02:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Bathrobe (talk) 05:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

External Links

Here is why these links should be removed. (take a look at WP:EL too)

  • Metal Maidens fanzine
    • large ammount of banner ads
    • a blog by any other name...
  • Metal Queens a site devoted to women in Metal
    • "Welcome to my web page"... (personal web page) on isp host
    • © "2003-2006" Metal Queens (its old)
  • Endemoniada 'zine
    • Its on a free-host (lycos)
    • A Blog by any other name...
    • It looks like the last update was in 2004
  • Women in Punk Archive maintained by Nicole Emmenegger (aka Jenny Woolworth)
    • Archive? little actual information on the site, mostly just a collection of links to various websites (a directory)
    • I'm willing to comprmise on this one though. I think its the best.

Relevance isn't the only critera for including external links, these zines are basicly blogs because they are run by a small group of individuals and don't have any mainstream acceptance. The design of these sites are unprofessional and the content is limited (being mostly links, 2 line reviews, or out of date). →(Speak•MorgothX•Havoc) 02:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If the "bigger issue" is on 'zines and the fact you personally do not find them, or their staff, relevant a better forum would be the Zine articles talk page and not here. Also deletions, or additions, to an Wikipedia article should not be made on an editor's personal opinion.
If the issue is external links and their redirects than the concern would be if the domain name redirected to a harmful site that is not relevant, spam or trying to damage files or otherwise harm a persons computer. I verified each link and none of them do that. Simply having a domain name that redirects to a free hosting service in not reason for deletion of a link.
If the issue is a Self-published source you can check the guidelines set forth at WP:RS, in particular: Self-published_sources. Remember that guidelines are just that - basic guides for editors to assist in creation of Wikipedia pages. They are not the same as Wikipedia Policy.
In regards to the Jenny Woolworth site you, or someone, can make a proposal that the database be spun off from the main article and placed under the "See also" section. The guidelines contained in WP:SAL should assist you in that case.
If the issue is about rather or not external links are relative to an article a look at Wikipedias References and External links lists states: Reference lists show information sources outside of Wikipedia. Under that basic guideline and, as they relate to this article, the links provided are fine thusly they were restored.
Soundvisions1 (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

An external link to Piece If Metal, that was added by USER:212.0.125.245 on October 2, 2008, was removed per Wikipedia guidelines that advise links to English language content are strongly preferred for use in the English-language Wikipedia, unless the external link is to an official site for either an entry on the list or for the article/itself. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Dictionary definitions

Are the dictionary definitions for "all", "female", and "band" at the top of the article really useful? These are fairly basic words, and presumably the people using the English Wikipedia speak English proficiently enough that they won't pose much trouble. And even assuming they did, they could look up the words on their own; I see no need to link to a definition after each word. Kairos (talk) 04:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Because of discussions and insertions of "all female band" the definitions were added. Some editors feel that "all female" means "at least one" and "band" means "any group who sings" thusly providing a definition of each word aids in making it clear. (Salt-N-Pepa dif 2005 as an example) Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen in page title

I renamed the article in accordance with Hyphen#Compound modifiers and Compound modifier#Hyphenation of elements following a discussion at the Reference desk (currently here, archived here). As neither "all" nor "female" independently modify "band", the phrase "all-female" must be hyphenated. -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

boys band?

this way of saying that a band has a female leader sound old fashioned and it's against wquality of gender ir you ask me. If we don't say boys band we shouldn't say girls band. Mark —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.135.7.121 (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Roger Ebert 's comment is offensive and irrelevant --Delete Please?

The Roger Ebert comment, which is simply speculation, does not deserve to be on this page. It ought to be deleted. Quite apart from having little merit in terms of scholarship, it is offensive. At best he references a fictional group; at worst he cites a film which is problematic for feminists as the root of a movement that is marked by its feminist attitudes. I'd love to hit the delete button! Any reason why this should stay? Thanks to all who are engaged in this wonderful list btw.EstherLaver (talk) 23:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

It is relevant to the article and the section. Those are his statements about Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, a cult film that centered around The Carrie Nations. Rather the band was real or not it did influence musicians, certainly female ones and all female bands were rare at that time. Certainly it can be argued who was the "first" to do something, such as influence a female to pick up an instrument, but Beyond the Valley of the Dolls and The Carrie Nations are fairly well known in the world of cult films and cult bands and that comment is not out of line and, even though it is OR to some, I have heard both female and male musicians say The Carrie Nations were an influence on them. Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I am now more convinced that it should go. This argument point to the fact that these comments belong in a section about the film and the reasons for its cult status. It is not a real band, as you say it is fictional. Perhaps a section on fictional influences and depictions of female bands? If this stays then one can make a case for the inclusion of the cartoon "Josie and the Pussy Cats"1970-1972 , because Hanna Barbera took steps to create a real band and introduced the first African American character etc. The comic book band crossed into mainstream life. This isn't meant to be facetious in any way. I simply think one need to be alert to the boundaries of what is appropriate. If Carrie Nation, why not Josie and the Pussy Cats, or at least a link to the page. I'm not trying to challenge, but just discuss, written in good faith. ThanksEstherLaver (talk) 02:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I must admit I, myself, was more influenced by the TV show Josie and the Pussy Cats than The Carrie Nations in terms of thinking all females bands were really cool, but that is not what Wikipedia is based on. If sources can be found that indicate the Josie and the Pussy Cats TV series influenced them that it should be put in. One the other hand the "band" Josie and the Pussycats probably should be put in because they were a "real" band. But beyond the TV show, in the real world, None of the singles charted, and many people didn't even know the album was available. As a result, sales were far below expectations, and plans for a national tour were shelved. Being "fake" or "real" (or even charting) isn't a sole criteria - see Desperate Teenage Lovedolls as an example where another "fake" band went into the real world. The film and the band have developed cult followings. But both left their mark on the scene. While "Cherie Moor" became far better known as an actress than the lead singer "Melody" in Josie and the Pussycats she did release solo albums, and a top 40 single. And Patrice Holloway, aka "Valerie", also released singles past Josie and the Pussycats. In all however, one of the key "phrases" as Wikipedia is "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:50, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the info on the Pussycats;really interesting material. I'm just musing, but if there were to be a section on depictions of female bands in film and television,(or something of that sort) could this material be included? What about the female band in "Some Like it Hot" that Lemmon and Curtis dress in drag to join? I'm sure there are more. Does it merit commentary? Thanks again for your thoughtful respsonseEstherLaver (talk) 01:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
EstherLaver, I am uncomfortable with this entire section, mainly because I find your attitude confusing: You are contradictory with your statement "I'm not trying to challenge, but just discuss, written in good faith." - yet you start the same paragraph with "I am now more convinced that it should go.", and titled the section itself "Roger Ebert 's comment is offensive and irrelevant --Delete Please?". I'm not convinced that you are acting from a neutral point of view. Just commenting. a_man_alone (talk) 09:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I am trying to be very neutral and that is the problem. I don't like the Roger Ebert entry, but I am trying to be open. You are actually pointing to the softness of my position, not the hardness and agenda.EstherLaver (talk) 19:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Swing fro the 40s

Hi I've just expanded Ivy Benson's bio - a pioneer women's big band leader – and her all-girls orchestra, an extremely popular swing band in the 40s & 50s. Where would they fit in this article? Tks, Manytexts (talk) 07:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Outside pop music

When I looked at the page for Rasputina (band), I noticed that this band has a male member listed (if I'm not mistaken). There also appears to be males in the former members list. It would seem to me that any mention of coed bands in this article is out of place. -TheCrimsonANTHROPOLOGIST 05:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


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